True Crime Survivor Panel: "Our thoughts on Crime Con" (Do's & Don'ts)

"Your 20 minutes of fun, was my 12 days of terror." A true-crime victim shared in a post on Reddit. That post was reposted in a CrimeCon Facebook group and inspired episode 35 of Moving Past Murder. In this episode guest host and journalist, Christine O'Donnell talks to survivors Kara Robinson Chamberlain, who was kidnapped by a serial killer at 15 -years old, Terra Newell, who was forced to kill "Dirty John" in self-defense. And, Collier Landry, who overheard his father kill his mother when he was 11-years-old. Months later he faced his father in court. The panel talks about the pros and cons of being the subject of the content true crime fans love. If you're going to CrimeCon 2022, you should listen to this episode.

Resources & Links Mentioned:

Kara Robinson Chamberlain

Website: https://www.kararobinsonchamberlain.com/

Documentary: Escaping Captivity: "The Kara Robinson Story" : https://www.oxygen.com/escaping-captivity-the-kara-robinson-story

Terra Newell:

Website: https://terranewellsurvival.com/about/ Podcast: Dirty John: https://www.latimes.com/projects/la-me-dirty-john/

Collier Landry:

Podcast: Moving Past Murder: https://www.collierlandry.com/

Full Transcript:

Kara Robinson Chamberlain 0:01 This is someone's true horror story. Terra Newell 0:05 I really hate it when people come up to me and they're like, Oh, I dated Attorney John and I'm like, no you dirty John. And so in that I had to kill in self defense. Collier Landry 0:17 1000s 10s of 1000s billions of dollars. You were making a lot of money off of other people suffering and what are they getting? Yeah. Christine O'Donnell 0:23 What goes through your mind when you think of these fans who are so excited to talk about? Murder, they've got their nails done with blood splatter on. Intro Stinger 0:41 Testimony continued today in the most notorious criminal trial in Richland County history. Dr. John Boyle is accused of killing his wife marine and burying her body in the basement of his new home in Erie, Pennsylvania. The 12 year old son finally took the stand as I heard a screen I heard, but it's about this loud where the jury find the defendant guilty. Collier Landry 1:00 When I was 12 years old, my testimony sent my father to prison for murdering my mother. This podcast serves as a type of therapy and reconciliation for myself. And it is my hope that helps anyone who has experienced deception, betrayal and dark trauma. I'm call your Landry and this is moving past murder. Christine O'Donnell 1:22 Hello, and welcome to this episode of moving past murder. I know you're used to hearing Collier, Landry right off the top of these shows. And this show is a little bit different. My name is Christine O'Donnell, I am a veteran journalist and Podcast Producer, and I'll be guest hosting this episode of moving past murder. This episode was inspired by a Reddit post that was shared in a crime con 2022 Facebook group titled, my thoughts on True Crime podcasts as a victim. I'm going to read for you some excerpts from that post. But before I do, I want to share a disclaimer that this episode will discuss sexual abuse and rape and may be difficult for some listeners. This is an episode that is not for little years. And we want we will be adding resources in the show notes. So the post starts off with the following. Quote, I was abducted and raped in 2012. My name wasn't released since I was a child. But that doesn't mean that people don't know about my experience. My story has been in at least four podcasts without my permission. She says one of the worst things is when people request my story to podcast as their, quote, favorite story, or something fun to listen to while working out. Or this super crazy story. She continues to say, my brave story isn't your 20 minutes of fun. It was my 12 days of terror. She says I do not want to be your next True Crime obsession, or your new favorite story. We victims, she says are often pushed to the side for the glorification of our abusers. And it feels like I'm re victimized every time. So I read this article, this post, call your read this and we wanted to do this podcast coming up on crime con which is a true crime convention happening in Las Vegas as this episode is being released, actually. So we're doing this episode on trauma informed true crime. So if you are a true crime fan, if you are somebody who it gets excited by True Crime loves True Crime has ever wanted to approach a victim and ask them about their story. We talk about how to do that in this episode. So in this episode of moving past murder, you will hear from True Crime survivors about the pros and cons of being the subject of the content True Crime fans love. You'll hear from Kara Robinson Chamberlain. She is the subject of the oxygen documentary escaping captivity. That Cara Robinson story you'll hear from Tara Newell, one of the main players in the podcast and TV series, dirty John. And last but not least you will hear from your regular host of moving past murder. Collier Landry who is the subject of a murder in Mansfield. Before we continue, I do want to share or that I have a four year old son. And he was home with the flu during this recording. And it was a live recording. And there were a number of times where he just came in and started pulling on cords. So you may notice some audio issues or camera issues if you're watching this on YouTube. And I just want to let you know that is likely the cause. And I do want to share my apologies, not only to the audience, but also to these wonderful guests. Without further ado, here is more from your regular host call your Landry. What's up Collier Landry 5:40 everybody on call your Landry Welcome to this live episode of moving forward or before crime con. And I have some amazing guests who are gonna introduce themselves. Terra Newell 5:50 Well, I'm Taryn nul, best known from the dirty John series, and I have been on call yours podcast before so I hope you guys have tuned into that episode. Kara Robinson Chamberlain 6:00 Hi, my name is Cara Robinson Chamberland. When I was 15, I was kidnapped from my best friend's front yard at gunpoint by a man who held me captive for 18 hours until I was able to escape from him and lead law enforcement back to him, at which time he was soon after identified as a person that was responsible for at least three other murders in a different state. So I escaped the serial killer. Christine O'Donnell 6:25 And you all know Collier, and Hi everyone. I'm Christine O'Donnell, I am honored to be guest hosting this special episode of moving past murder. Thank you so much for having me Collier. What would you want fans to know when they show up to this convention? I'll start we'll start with you. Collier. Collier Landry 6:47 Well, I think for me, I think that so I mean, I guess all of us were pretty much children. When all this stuff happened. I mean, I'm probably the youngest. And then I would say Kira, and then obviously Tara was so it's an interesting perspective to have for this. But I think for me, I I've been dealing with my trauma probably the longest, right? And so for me, it's so Second Age, and I'm 44. So it's been what, 2032 years that I've been dealing with this. So for me, it's just kind of old hat. I think for people where it's much fresher in their minds. I think like somebody like Tara with this happened when this happened about five years ago, six years Terra Newell 7:28 or seven years? Six years ago in August. Collier Landry 7:31 Exactly. So it's like, it's very new for you still. And it's you know, I think that the way that you there's such a fandom with this, this is something that I did not realize when I made a murder in Mansfield. And when I went to like regular film festivals, people would talk to me, but it was I was at a film festival. Now this is something where I'm going to a crime convention where people are into true crime and carry you were just sharing me the photographs of like people's nails and outfits and things of that nature. There's just this obsession, that with true crime, I really have a hard time understanding like, in a lot of people think it's a shot in Freud of the situation. But also people think that it could be just, you know, shot in Freud or just just a general obsession of like being prepared or what if this happened to me, what would I do? It's, it's a lot to think about. It's a lot to live in. It's to live in it as yourself, but to have to make that conscious choice that you want to live in that world is very interesting to me to say the least. Kara Robinson Chamberlain 8:35 Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I, it's I we're both like, yeah, yeah. I think for a lot of people who may not have experienced a significant trauma. For them, it is almost like exposure therapy, where they can listen to all of these things and try to figure out if they might be able to identify a serial killer, right, if they may be able to predict themselves from becoming a victim, right? Or, or I feel like that that feels to me like a lot of the consumer base of true crime is people that are either trying to understand why perpetrators do the bad things that they do, or they're trying to prevent themselves from becoming victims and what that feels like what I've seen and what I've experienced, but it is it's very interesting to me because I don't consume it, you know, I've been having these conversations around how to produce and consume trauma informed True Crime content and, and I regularly get people who asked me, well, what are some podcasts that you do recommend? Like, I don't listen to any of them. I don't consume it because I've lived it right. Like, do you guys consume any of Terra Newell 9:55 that? Only your guys's stuff like when I see So in story, you know, like I went and watched Collier's documentary, and I watched car cars documentary. And that because I met you guys and then I was like I want to know their story and I don't want them to have to go through it all and like tell me. Yeah, Kara Robinson Chamberlain 10:18 same thing Collier Landry 10:22 it's So Tara or Christine so So Christine you want to sort of give her because you're by the car have you been through? Have you been to crime con yourself? Kara Robinson Chamberlain 10:34 I haven't been going this year I have a lot of friends who have been so I've heard all the Collier Landry 10:39 things so we're noobs so we should eat we need to confer and we can have a moment where we can both just breathe and not talk about that bubble Christine O'Donnell 10:48 if it's underneath me so trying not to have anxiety. So call your of course your documentary is a murder in Mansfield. Tara you have been featured in dirty John the podcast dirty John or I guess I can't say featured but your story has been featured in dirty John the podcast and dirty time the TV show. And Collier Landry 11:34 so as to newbies that are sitting here Kyra, what would you say to us going into crime con because you just want a few What 2019 I believe and you spoke? Terra Newell 11:43 Correct? Yeah. So I was a speaker there. Um, that room was crazy. I think there was like 800 people in there. And it was intense. But here's the thing about crime con, I love the people that throw it on because they want to put on something teach people about the education and whatnot. But it's really important for survivors, victims, anyone to just have like, a time to decompress. And that was something that I didn't get when I was Speaker, we literally went from speaking that this thing to a luncheon to meet and greet. And there was nowhere in between where I was able to just be like, Okay, I'm processing what's going on. Because, you know, I'm there to talk about my own trauma. And so you have to process things, when after you're done talking about it, but instead you're being bombarded by people. And I love them by, um, I went to PaleyFest. And it was funny because I went to Walking Dead panel, and they were like, don't run up because you're gonna be like zombies to them. And it kind of for me, it kind of was like zombies just like crowding you. And for me, I had to like, give myself a minute to calm down my system and tell myself like these people are safe. And so, you know, I, I was really appreciative of everyone that I met. But just, you know, if you see someone sitting down, and they're eating, you know, maybe wait till they're done eating. Kara Robinson Chamberlain 13:24 Yeah, that I mean, I will say that brings up an important point that I would kind of piggyback off of what you said, because I do a lot of public speaking and keynote speaking and something I've only necessarily recognized within myself once I started making friends with others public survivors, is that like compassion fatigue, that vulnerability, fatigue that afterwards, I mean, you kind of whenever your body starts to slow down, it feels a little bit like you've been hit by a truck. Because even though you may be healed from your true healed, right, you may be healed from your trauma, or you may be coping well with your trauma, your body still recognizes, yes, that physiologically, even though your brain may not be checking into it, your body when you're talking about it still feels that trauma. So for anyone who is at crime con and maybe, you know, just have that in mind whenever you're going to these meet and greets that these people have just very viscerally relive one of the worst moments, probably the worst moment of their life, and that their body is very much coping with that in a very real way. Collier Landry 14:36 Yeah, I mean, I can feel it, you know, I saw I was just interviewing somebody before this about he same as Dr. On Hill Escovitch. And he wrote a book called The Art of routine. And I was discussing what were the reasons why I wanted to talk to him as I have this. You know, it's, I feel that routine is a very integral part of trauma recovery or traumas or Rival. And when I get thrown out of my routine, which I currently am, just because I've been traveling, shooting, working a lot, and kind of backing that flow, and then I get thrown off like an exercise regimen or my just just that sort of self care moments, that just natural sort of breath that you can take. Right. Yeah. And, and I think that people need to recognize it like, yes, we understand that you are, you are interested in what we have to say. And that you have that you are generally empathetic to what we've gone through. You're not like, oh, but you know, but still, like, just slow your roll do slow your roll a little bit. And just, you know, let let me finish my salad. Or, you know what I mean? Yeah. I think that it, but I also think that that's, that is new even. It's interesting, because I'm very, I'm very curious to see what people's reactions will be, especially you and I are going to be newbies to this, right? And I'm just going as a gas. I'm not going as a speaker or anything. But I'm wondering, like, you know, when you go and you go to a first of all, I guess my thing is how many people are going to be there that's always that's in the back of my head. The second thing is is like if you saw celebrities, for example, The Walking Dead panel at Paley Center, Paley fast, which is a great festival. Would you like would you bum rush, Norman Ritas and be like, Oh, my God, no, you wouldn't, or his bodyguard would jump in the way and be like, like, slow your roll a there's a line, you can talk to them the respect. And I think that they're I think that because of the lines are so blurred. With that in in true crime. I feel this is just my guestimation, if you will, that those boundaries are blurred. And so they just are very much in Oh, my God, you can't leave you went through this. And it's like, yeah, I did I back off. Kara Robinson Chamberlain 16:50 Yeah, I think there's also like this implied companionship, and just because of our authenticity and our vulnerability, right, when you share something so vulnerable. People are like, Oh, I know you I, I understand you. And that's fine. That's I feel like that's why I share. I mean, I feel like that's why a lot of us share so that people can see themselves in our story and maybe be inspired or want to get tips about how to heal whatever. But, but yeah, it is so important that we maintain our routine, because it's like that predictability, it's what keeps us level and no, like, I don't have any routine routine leading up to travel. And when I'm traveling, like, I don't work out, like I try, but it's just everything gets thrown off. You're absolutely right. Terra Newell 17:36 Yeah. Well, it's also like the body when we're put into these situations, we're reminded of our fight and flight mode and stuff. And we're like, when we're eating and stuff in, you're in fight or flight mode, and these people come up, your body actually can't digest the food, your body has to stop the digestive system, and like go to being high on high alert. So it's like the body like won't allow yourself to rest when these people are around also, unfortunately. Yeah. Kara Robinson Chamberlain 18:13 Yeah. Yeah, there's all these physiological processes that basically anything other than survival, your body diverts energy away from those things. So like, digestion is definitely one of those things, but there's a lot of other things that come with it. So also an important thing to keep in mind. Collier Landry 18:31 Yeah, absolutely. So Tara, how many people who we expect you just sit in a room of 800 people? I'm like, because I keep trying to think is there going to be like, 2000 3000 Comic Con, you know, it's like 100 hundreds of 1000s of people. I when I was there 10 years ago was like 157,000 people I was there as a working and I was like, it was it was packed. I mean, it was you couldn't move. Terra Newell 19:01 I don't Yeah, well, it's different now because of like COVID but I'm sure so I I went to Comic Con this like three six months ago whenever the last one was so have like that experience. So do you think about Collier Landry 19:17 crime con How many of you how many people do you think are at crime con how many attendees do they have? You think? Terra Newell 19:22 Oh my gosh. I'm 1000s Yeah, I remember walking down the aisle or going down the escalator and there it was just like jam packed everywhere. Oh, Collier Landry 19:33 wow. Okay, so a lot of people. Kara Robinson Chamberlain 19:36 Yeah, well, I think. Yeah, I think a friend said that. I think their most recent estimate was like 5000 people I think. And then that doesn't count like people like us who are guests or speakers and vendors and podcasters. So a lot Collier Landry 19:58 Wow. Christine O'Donnell 20:01 What goes through your mind when you think of these fans who are so excited to talk about murder and other crazy, intense triggering things so much so that they've got their nails done with blood splatter on them? A lot. Terra Newell 20:28 That's lots process. Yeah. Kara Robinson Chamberlain 20:32 I, I will say I was talking about this in my Instagram Stories a few days ago. And I actually got a message from someone, I got a lot of great messages and great responses. Because basically what I was saying is, I talk about these things, because I'm strong enough to handle things that doesn't, it doesn't trigger me see it, and I think maybe not in the best taste. But it doesn't trigger me. But I talked about it for people who may be six months out from their trauma and sharing or, you know, maybe triggered by those things. And so, while I did get a lot of positive response, I also got a response from someone who said, Well, how is this any different than like the horror genre? Because it attracts the same type of people kind of write, like, and I said, Okay, I see that I will raise it. But horror is fiction. Collier Landry 21:20 This is a fantasy. It's complete fantasy and fiction, and you're Kara Robinson Chamberlain 21:25 like, but this is someone's true. Horror Story. Like this is something that happened, I think, very often people can get caught up in listening to these stories. So it's almost like they get this desensitized because they listened to so much of it. And they forget that they're at the core of these stories are actual humans who went through something horrific. Christine O'Donnell 21:44 And on that note, are there things that people should not say? When they see you? Terra Newell 21:52 I'll, I'll go with this fine. So I really hate it when people come up to me, and they're like, Oh, I dated a dirt dirty John. And I'm like, No, you did. You may have been like someone that was a womanizer. But dirty John is so in that I had to kill in self defense. So like, and I know that that's a huge thing is to say, Oh, I've been with a dirty John. And for me, it's so different. Because, I mean, I've been in terrible situations where I dated guys, but I don't call them dirty John's I call them by their name. I call abuser by their name, and that's what people should do. That's a good point. Yeah. Thank you. Christine O'Donnell 22:39 Well, I feel like I could picture like, merchandise with that slogan on it, though, Tara, which, like, makes me feel so uncomfortable. Terra Newell 22:49 Well, I mean, but that should be my right to discuss big times, you know, and there's like, his ex wife and my mom, that I'd be like, you know, how would this make you feel if they were okay with that, that's a different story. But there's, people have to realize that we went through the trauma, and it's our personal trauma, and it's so much bigger than the story that they're just reading or watching on the news or TV. Collier Landry 23:20 Yeah, it's almost like, either, and this is I think we're gonna be probably lead us into another discussion, but sort of the thing that I think about is the commerce of it all. Like, I look at the tickets, and I go, okay, that'd be IP experience is like $1,700. To go to extra, like three seminars, you know, the minimum tech is like, 300 or 400 bucks, right? All the money, the full flows and for food is that it's a lot of money that this thing makes, and they don't pay the speakers or anything like that, as far as I know. And I think that yeah, that kind of commerce is what always just serves me and just like you, like Christina said, us obviously as a merchandise thing, like, well, I I'm with it. I was with a dirty John can be a t shirt that somebody would have on you no need to see that. It'd be like, really, bro, like, are you serious? Yeah. I wanted to, I wanted to make a shirt. And I still, I have every right to wear it. But I wanted to say my father murdered my mother. And all I got was his fucking t shirt. Which is what just drill Kara Robinson Chamberlain 24:25 the dark humor side of it, right, Collier Landry 24:27 which is the dark humor because I have a dark sense of humor. I'm a sort of, you know, I'm kind of like that, you know. But, you know, I started on I was my mother, by the way. So my mother would probably think it was funny, you know, God rest her soul. But the thing is, is that when I initially said that, to some people, they're like, How dare you? Do you understand how upsetting that is? And I was like, do you understand how upsetting him it? Is this the truth? That I would wear a t shirt that we say the truth, do you and how upsetting that is for me that I have every right to wear them like, oh, yeah, I didn't think about that. I just thought about all that. something and I was like, Well, yeah, I was like, that's the point. The point of wearing the t shirt is to say, something that is so shocking that you you're looking like a Kara Robinson Chamberlain 25:12 visual shaking someone, right? Collier Landry 25:14 How dare How dare you How dare you have a T shirt. I was like, I have a red t shirt, because it happened to me. And my point was even in a greater sense was like, you know, you think about like, all I got was a fucking t shirt, like, okay, like, there are people whose stories are exploited that companies make 1000s upon 1000s of dollars, a convention makes 1000s 10s of 1000s millions of dollars, who are making a lot of money off of other people's suffering, and what do they get? In the end? What do they really get? They get some exposure, they get a sense of they, I mean, even think about like, and this is not me convention, because I didn't I didn't my documentary, because it was my natural process of dealing with what I did with it was my idea. You know, I approached all the people involved. And so this is what I wanted to do. But I made the least amount of money of any room. And it's that it wasn't about money. It's about telling the story and connecting with people and putting that to bed. That chapter for me. It's why I moved to Los Angeles was when I became a filmmaker. But it's interesting when you think about, like when these things I mean, I'm sure that has made investigation, discovery, a lot of money, I guess they put the money up for it, they paid for it all that. But it's interesting to think about the commerce of all of this and this, it calls that into question like you just said, the horror genre, for example, that is something that is, you know, generates horror movies will always make money. And you think about oh, well, what is it for? Well, this is different because this actually happened. And almost you think about like if these stories are made, and if somebody has a horror film that is based on their real life, like if you put true crime into a horror context, right? If you were making a film or a thing, would people get paid differently? Or will people get compensated for this stories differently? Obviously, a writer of a horror film is going to get paid a WGA rate or whatever, their agent negotiates for the when we write our own stories by living our lives, do we like we get out of it? It's just it's interesting to think about, but I'm, I talked too much. So I'm gonna let you Davis speak more? Christine O'Donnell 27:14 Well, I just I think you bring up an interesting point about sharing your own story on your own, and like taking ownership of that. And there are also so many people out there who may be sharing your story without your consent, or without your knowledge, or they may be sharing it in a way that you would really rather they didn't, or it might have been nice if they reached out to you in some way for a comment or something. So I feel like this is a great opportunity to talk a little bit about the consent conversation. Absolutely. Collier Landry 27:52 And also prevents it also prevents victim shaming. That's the thing that a lot of people will look at these situations very easily on their own high horse and say, well, that person was doing that, oh, because they wanted money. So they married this person because he was rich. And then of course, he was a sociopath. And like, I remember my I remember people saying about my mother, oh, she wouldn't get a divorce from him because of the money. Because your dad was a doctor and he was making money. And I'm like, That's absurd. Like they were together for over 20 years, almost 25 years. And my mother paid for him to go to medical school, like my mother is when we put them through medical school. You didn't I mean? So they're these things that people make these snap judgments and that's what infuriates me more than anything. And that's when you take control of your story. But yeah, I guess you guys Kara Robinson Chamberlain 28:41 I similar to you call your color I, I wanted to tell my own story. So I found a document or a team that I you know, production company I wanted to work with, and I was involved in every step of the process. And I will tell you, I did not get paid that much like you said, and I did that because I wanted my story to be told in a way that felt genuine to my experience and in a way that I would be proud of because it was my experience. Every time I had told my story and all the means so whether it was you know, like a, an interview for a television show or or whatever, there was always this moment where the, you know, the executive producer, whoever was interviewing me would say, Okay, now can you tell me about this? And can you inject a little more emotion when you talk about this? And you know, they wanted to kind of sensationalize it and make it more easily sold, I guess. And so for me, that felt very disingenuous. And so that's why I wanted to tell my story. So. So I also wanted to have something that I could point people back to when they say, oh, Cara, who is she? I can say, Okay, well, here's my documentary, please go watch it, get an idea of what happened. And so that was my first step into going into you know, doing more public speaking, more advocacy work, things like that. up. But yeah, there's been a lot of people who have shared my story. And for me, again, it's not triggering for me. But when you have podcasts that are for profit podcasts that are telling my story, that's problematic. I mean, it's not it is not about the money for me, like it genuinely is not. But at the end of the day, I'm going to call a spade a spade, if you are telling my story, which is my victimization, and you are getting paid for telling my stories, that is exploitation, and that is a problem. That's a problem. And, Collier Landry 30:36 and I, you know, I started thinking about this after I interviewed Tara, because I know how successful like now dirty John is a franchise, if you will, you know, Netflix, I believe, owns the property. And you think about that, and then she was saying, you know, our story became public. And you heard her and her mother's agenda with doing the podcast was to was for awareness. My agenda for making the documentary was awareness you for your telling your story, Kara, same thing, to awareness and, and to let people in and also to share the sight of the fact that you can come through these extraordinary circumstances, these insurmountable odds, they come out the other side, okay. And that's what is inspiring to people. But for other people, it's like I start looking at like, they also have, there's a Patreon account that is most successful, and there's a true crime related patreon account, they make a million dollars a month. And I'm thinking when they talk about the stories do they take like, 10% of their profits, like you would tie to a church and, and put it in a kitty. So $1.2 million a year goes into a kitty, and then all the stories that people I talked to, they reach out to them and say, we either like to give you this money, or we would like to give this to a charity, or support your foundation, do you have a non profit, we would like to contribute to your nonprofit because you've contributed to our profit, our for profit, you know, they mean, and I think that there's things it's, it's the same reason why for years, I refuse to watch college sports, because I refuse to watch the NCAA and, and companies like starter Nike up above profit off these kids with this misguided representation that a college degree somehow buys you a job and a life and a career that you want, because that's complete bullshit. So it's the same sort of thing that that's why and so you can see how upset I'm getting, because that's probably my biggest trigger is the exploitation factor of all of it. And even though like I look at my stuff on the witness stand at 12 years old in 1990, testifying against my father, on television, in the paper, this that the other, you know, the television station wasn't anything until this trial happened until they had a kid on the way to Syria, which doesn't happen anymore. Not that I'm angry about or anything, but I think about like, you couldn't exploit a child that way. And thank God, you can't do that anymore. And I didn't care. I was going to tell the story. I'm happy. I didn't know I wanted that information out there. But it's interesting. It's just it just poses these interesting questions, but I'm gonna let the parent speak because I got Kara Robinson Chamberlain 32:58 I gotta cool off. Terra Newell 33:01 Like, what, where do I start? Right? Well, Christine O'Donnell 33:07 and sent consent in testing and Terra Newell 33:13 well, so my mind was complicated. I was so fortunate to come from a wealthier family, and my sister on a lawyer on everything. So any story that came out about me at first season, desist, um, and then it was kind of funny, because my, we got contacted by the LA Times in style. And because we did that story, our story became public information. And so they were able to use that and sell our story rights. And it kind of sucked, because before the LA Times was going bankruptcy, and then yeah, about this podcast, and then it puts them back on the map. And now the podcast has 74 million listens. And it just really suck because when they sold the story, I was like, Well, I'm gonna take my story and go sell it. And they were like, well, you could do that. But we already sold it to a network and it's getting made and everything. So you can do that and I could do a different story, but rather scary for you. Yeah. Christine O'Donnell 34:33 Can I ask who you had that conversation with? Terra Newell 34:37 Um, so Atlas entertainment produced it, and they also got me there because I'm a huge like DC fan and I read comic books. I'm a huge like Harley Quinn fan, and I feel like I relate to Harley Quinn because I'm just like doing things and then somehow I'm okay. But like they were the producers have Suicide Squad. And so I was so excited. I love Margot Robbie. I love all those actors. And so I was like being grilling over the producers that were taking it in. But I talked to my friend Jason at Silver State production in Vegas. And then he told me, basically, you could go get an agent, but since it's already in production, it just you screwed up. So I'll be honest with them out that I got I got 100 grand for selling my story rights, which the actor that played me Didn't she made? Well, more than that, the show me well, more than that any actor on the show? Um, made around that or, you know, it depends on what part they got. But you know, if they're like a main actor on the show, they're making well beyond that amount. And if you're just like a daytime part, that's different, you know, but still a good amount of money. And so I went into it, just kind of being coerced into the situation in a sense, and having to say yes to this opportunity, and I'm very thankful that they showed my story the way that they shown it. And that they included me in my attack and everything, but it should be my story to go shop and sell. And then I should be not having to worry financially. You know, what, how am I going to pay for therapy? How am I going to pay for this? Yeah, exactly. Kara Robinson Chamberlain 36:38 I think the public information thing is so tricky, because I've been talking I a lot of what I do is social media based. And I've been talking with people on social media regularly about this. They're like, well, your story is public information, anyone can share it. And I liken that to, okay, well, that's sort of the same thing as saying, Oh, good, that girl was wearing a short skirt. So she was asking for it. Right? And like, Do you not see how those are the same things? Like, just consent one time? doesn't equal consent? Always also, right? So it's like, just because it's out there doesn't mean that it's for you to consume or use, right, like, and people just don't seem to get it out. It's public information. Anyone can use it. It's not Collier Landry 37:20 or they're bad. Or they're there's this Blurred Lines, like you just said, Oh, she was wearing a skirt short skirt. She was asking for it so that when she was climbing up in the tree, the paparazzi took a picture of her she was wearing your panties, right? You didn't mean? Like, yeah, they would. If they did that to someone they would the same lawyer would be, it would be Mark Geragos, in a fistfight with other lawyers trying to get that case to just rake the LA Times over the coals. So why is that any different than exploiting someone who's gone through this traumatic experience, especially like Tara, who had to do something that was so out of character for her to save her own life? You know, the mean, it's like, Why? Why is that? Okay? But that's not okay. You did it. Because it's because it's the actress that even Julia Garner is climbing the tree. And that's what happened. You don't I mean, it's so it's so interesting. But again, it goes back to this like analogy that I used of the college sports for a long time, and I believe the athletes are getting, you know, compensated now, but, you know, for a long time, or they were making money, oh, because they're getting a free education. Well, we all know that that's just bullshit. It does, you know, good, first of all, and second of all, it's like, okay, you know, you're, they're just exploited. It's just it's so exploitative. And that's the infuriating thing. And it's like, they're that I feel like that needs to sort of change. And obviously, it's going to be decreasing revenues for companies that are these large podcasting companies that are putting all this money behind it. I mean, I am so I am so intrigued to see, to see how all this goes down and less than 48 hours. I mean, I'm gonna be talking to people about my podcasts and but I'm, you know, I'm gonna be talking to people that are making millions of dollars. And they haven't, you know, I mean, not to be a dick about it, but they haven't been through shit. You're a fan, and you're talking about something and you're talking about other people's suffering. And you've and here I am, like, scrapping out as a filmmaker. You know, here's, here's Tyra doing your thing, yours, you're doing your thing. And then these people are just profiting so much money. And it's like, that's very interesting. It's very, very interesting. I feel like it'll change though. I think I feel like if people start speaking up about this, victims, I think victims rights, I think it's a big deal. You know, you could exploit a prisoner story, the United States, you know, look at Hurricane Carter. Yeah, Kara Robinson Chamberlain 39:39 I think yeah, I think people that people want to do what is right, I think we're living in a world where people are trying to be conscious consumers. So it's like, the perfect time to be having these conversations because people want to be consciously consuming content. And when we're bringing these things up, people like us that especially when you're a public survivor, like we're poor Public figures were not hard to find. So I see no excuse why you couldn't just shoot me a message on anywhere like I have a website's my name. If you Googled me it came up. Right, right. Like to Collier Landry 40:11 call yours in the world, right, like, Kara Robinson Chamberlain 40:14 so. So I don't know, I think I just don't find any excuse for not at least shooting a message, hey, I'm doing this podcast or story or whatever. Christine O'Donnell 40:23 So is that what you would recommend? podcasters do because I also feel like there are. There are people who are in the podcasting world who aren't necessarily journalists, but they are really smart. They're really good interviewers, they're really great storytellers. They don't necessarily have the dream chain training that some journalists might have. But again, there are some journalists who get it wrong. So how would you recommend people approach you or approach sharing a story that might be about you? Kara Robinson Chamberlain 40:59 Do your consent do it with consent? That's, that's, I think, and you know, one of the push backs that we, that we often get when we say these things is one of two things. It's either Well, I'm a journalist, or I'm in media, you know, I'm in a news agency, and we can't compensate for stories, right, which is, that's garbage. Sorry, if you're gonna make money off of me, you know, that's garbage. Or, well, if we pay you then we'll have to pay everyone. It's like, yeah, excuse. That's the point. I'm sorry. Right? Like, it's, it's not about the money. But if you are making if you have a for profit, way that you are telling stories, then you need to have a line item set aside for paying the people whose stories you're talking about or donating to a cause or whatever it is. And I think the podcasters the true crime, people who are producing it, trauma informed, that's what they do. Terra Newell 41:59 Well, for me, personally, you could reach out Instagram, email, anything in typically I respond, I just don't respond on Sundays. Because you know, some days we get in, like trauma holes, and, you know, you don't have to talk to anyone that day. And so, but I eventually always get back to that person, if they always ask about a project, and I hate it when like, they tag you on Instagram later, after? Yeah, after it's done. And they're like, Hey, can you promote me stuff? Because you're in it? And I'm like, Well, I wasn't really involved in it. So no, not really. No, Collier Landry 42:44 without contacting you first. Terra Newell 42:46 Oh, no, you're fine. No, if the people don't like making your story, and then you like, promote it, and then you're like, What is this and then it's like, well, one of the cases like so in tagged me in a Ghost Hunting YouTube video of John. And I freaked out on them. Because I was like, first of all, you don't need to go fuck with his or mess with His Spirit. We can just let it be. We don't need to do anything involving that. And like, How dare you to not even asked me first. But no, any one thing that I'm involved in, please tag me in that. But if you do something about me, and I'm not aware of it, please don't tag me in it. Collier Landry 43:32 Yeah, that goes something. Thank you. That's that's very well, that wouldn't sit well with me either. Christine O'Donnell 43:43 Is there anyone out there who's doing it right where you're like, I love how they're covering these stories. I appreciate what they're doing. I'm so glad they did it that way. Is there anybody you want to shout out? Collier Landry 43:57 Shout out. I'll shout out first degree Alexis Linkletter Jack fanback. Billy Jensen, like they contacted me. I mean, they become friendly with Alexis, and I think they're, I think they're really approaching it. I mean, Billy has an extensive background in German journalism. And, you know, I think they're really they're really doing it. Right. I think they're, you know, they are they're also very compassionate about the stories and we're really sensitive with my story. And, you know, I had a great experience with them. So I'll give them a shout out for sure. Terra Newell 44:28 Alexis Oh, and then, um, I feel like we both had the same person to say but Sarah attorney, yeah. She's actually been Kara Robinson Chamberlain 44:41 Yes, she um, she actually has a budget in which she compensates people and, or donates to a cause or whatever. Actually, I met Ashley flowers last weekend at the event that I was at as well and someone was asking her how she takes cases and And she was saying, you know, she takes cases where she can get consent, or she can give back in some way. So, again, I don't consume these things. But I know Sarah's heart and I know Ashley's heart for why they do what they do. And so I feel like those are, those are decent suggestions. Collier Landry 45:20 Yeah, he's asked her attorney for YC for justice podcast. Yeah. Google's always your friend. Kara Robinson Chamberlain 45:27 Yeah. She does. disappearances on Spotify as well. Terra Newell 45:31 Yeah. And she was on my podcast, too. And I just loved her vibe, because everybody, everyone I'd like my true crime survivor. Advocates, net fans or whatever sent me her and you're like, you need to listen to her and connect with her. So I was like, I did and I loved it. And I love her. Kara Robinson Chamberlain 45:50 Yeah. And she's willing to learn, she's willing to like, listen and learn too. So she makes some mistakes like she owns up to it. So Collier Landry 45:59 also give a shout out to Chris Hanson, who was just on my program. You know, I've been a fan of Chris's work. It is 110 Emmys with To Catch A Predator, just because it's raised such awareness. It's how I how I, you know, 15 years ago when I saw reruns on YouTube, and I was like, Wow, this guy's doing some really interesting stuff. With really calling out this exploitation of children. And you know, he delves deeper into it now with like the world of tick tock and video games and things of that nature. So a shout out to him as well. But he's, you know, very seasoned journalist, obviously, yours with Dateline 3040 years, he's doing this, but he's great, too. So predators, I caught his his podcast, Christine O'Donnell 46:39 there is something about just I find myself thinking about just my experience working in news. And, you know, listening to the scanners, hearing this awful thing happening, going in the middle of the night, wherever it is camera rolling, in probably unlikely dangerous situations, a lot of the time to just record the trauma, and then get it on the news the next day and have the exclusive and have this and or, like get the exclusive interview here or there. And there was always a part of me, that never felt entirely right about it, like it felt exploitive, and it's just it's what where is the line between public information and exploiting people? And it just, it's a key place, there's an uncut, like, I don't know, I feel like my role as a journalist was always be a human first. Still is. Yeah, but um, but it just like I read, there really is a fine line here, whether there's, whether you're a journalism, a journalism, whether you're a journalist, whether you're a podcast, or whether you are hosting a convention, about true crime, like to find a way to find a good balance in telling stories, but also supporting survivors in a way that is not exploitive of their pain, and their trauma. And because there is so much of it out there. That, yeah, I really appreciate that. Collier Landry 48:24 I think you could also, I think you could also like, you know, so you know, I guess when people are, you're talking about my situation, wherever, imagine, imagine you're 12 years old, and you're you're 11 years old, and you hear this, and you're and you lose your mother, and you're confronted with this monster. And I think when they put things into context, like imagine when you're this person, I always appreciate that, like, instead of like this happened to them, and this is when they add that LM that just those little words of like, now put yourself in their shoes. Like when they start off, we talking about someone's story, you know, put yourself into their shoes for a second, you're 11 years old, you've just lost your mother is missing, you know that your father did it. And you're living in a very dangerous situation, and he knows that you need to tell the truth. You just found a picture of this house. And you don't know and you're talking to this detective behind father's back, like when they put those things in, you kind of really put the audience in that in that sort of driver's seat or in that the oh my god, like that's the picture in their head, like, oh, I it adds that compassionate element. So I always feel like that's a good thing to imagine being confronted in a garage, you know, and by your mother's husband, who is who has vengeance now he has a knife in his hand. Imagine being abducted right off of your city street and you wake up and you escaped with your life and then you leave. Once you get out you discover he killed people like imagine dealing with that trauma. He was a serial killer. And those are the things that when I think if the if they put that in context and try to put the audience in your or in our shoes, that really, really help hopes? He's Yeah, I suppose. Kara Robinson Chamberlain 50:03 I think you nailed it, though I mean, like to, to wrap it up, it's like, make it victim or survivor centric, right? How often do we see these stories in media and it's, you know, for instance, I will say our local media has done a great job recently, we just had over the weekend, unfortunately, we had an officer involved shooting, and all the media coverage was about the officer, it was not about the offender. Because most often when we see these things, what do you see? You see the mug shot? Right? Yeah. As opposed to a victim or a survivor centric narrative, right? Like, that's, that's how you do it. Right? You talk about it from, from their perspective, you don't focus on the offender who cares about them? Right? Like, I know, people want to try to understand why did this happen? How could someone get there, but it's that victim survivor centric narrative? Collier Landry 50:54 And that's, you know, I just started to just continue No, no, no, please. That was that was the one that was absolutely the one thing that when I moved to Hollywood, and I was pitching this story of like, I wanted to do a docu series, I don't know how this is where like, I own the rights to the pilot, it's my life. My obsession was like, Look, and this is what I told my producer John Morrissey, who had done American history, X 10 years prior, who I was pitching this on, and we got Barbara Kopple, who's won two Academy Awards. And all these things happen. Id came on Baba Baba. But the thing that I said is, you know, at that time, this wasn't, it's very in vogue right now to be compassionate, and to be empathetic and still want to have the survivors. Like that's what's happened 1020 30 years ago, we didn't look at it that way. And my thing that always drove me from 11 years on till now, and then to make that film was, it was bad, you know, victim is dead, bad guy goes to jail gavel hits, state gets his restitution, we say next. That's it. That's judging, boom done. And we never look at the ramifications, the consequences of violence, the ramifications on secondary vacants, ancillary victims, non combat PTSD, the communities that are involved in these things, and it's nice to hear what you just said, where the focus was not on, not solely on the perpetrator. But it was on the person who was perpetrated on the victim, their families, what was left behind, what were they doing with their lives, and they're in and that's something that I have to salute are, the acumen of today's journalist is really going is skewing towards that, that narrative, instead of instead of the, the, the tabloid style of the these job and this guns and terror, and the things that, you know, our brand is chaos, you know, sort of narrative that that sort of suited these types of cases over the last several decades, right. It's now about the compassionate element. This is what was left behind. This is the collateral damage. Let's look at this. Because I always think that that's the best thing. That's what my film was like, that's the best thing to prevent these types of things is you show the collateral damage, if you can give pause, don't just get them stop to get pause. They're like, Okay, I see how Callie was affected as a car tire was affected. I, I'm not gonna I'm gonna rethink what I'm doing. For my approach this like, I don't need to kill my wife, maybe I'll just get a divorce. Or I don't need to be this person. Let me just take a moment and breathe before I pulled this rifle out in front of a school. Do you really mean? Yeah, I might be altruistic and that sort of sentiment, but I think it really does give people pause. Even if there's only for a split second, it might be split second enough to prevent? Because they go okay, I don't want to go to jail. What's gonna happen my kid when I go to prison for murdering somebody, what is this? Like? What are the ramifications? Just make that happen? That might change the whole game. Terra Newell 53:46 Yeah, someone who's logical will go to that in someone who's illogical might not, you know? Sure. And that's where we know who needs to go away and who doesn't break through. Kara Robinson Chamberlain 54:00 I love that you hit on like the secondary victim aspect as well, because that's also important. And that, like, I know, my documentary, that was something that we did focus a lot on is like all of these secondary victims, which is still a very valid promo, right? Like, it's still focusing on them as having had a trauma and how can we support those people as well, like, it's just it I think that can be forgotten as well. Terra Newell 54:28 When I watched your documentary, I thought it was really cool that like you included your ex boyfriend, and that he was like talking about what it was like to even date you because it's like, you don't realize that when the person comes back, that person is change. That person's brain is completely different now. Yeah, I like that. Kara Robinson Chamberlain 54:51 I really like Thank you. Thank you. Collier Landry 54:56 Allow me to have to watch it. Yes, please do. Like You know what you're watching before I get a crime con? I'll be streaming it is to speak up what so what is the documentary call? Kara Robinson Chamberlain 55:07 It's escaping captivity, the CARA Robinson story and it aired on oxygen. So is that available for streaming? Yes, it should be. It's available on NBC Universal oxygen, Hulu, I think Hulu and YouTube. It's available both of those places as paid. It's probably on Amazon as well. Fantastic. Christine O'Donnell 55:28 I am I really enjoy your Tik Tok Kara. Thanks, I found myself just scrolling through it last night. And I do want to there was something that you shared that just I felt in my heart. And it was about forgiveness, and how you know what, you just don't have to do it. And you can still heal. Which is, which is an interesting take. Because I've heard you know, forgiveness is a gift that you give yourself. And I've heard this and I've, like listened to that. And in the past. I mean, there's so many thoughts about forgiveness, but I love this idea. This is just like, be projecting, but I love this idea of like, Hey, you don't have to forgive and you can still heal. So yeah, Kara Robinson Chamberlain 56:19 I mean, I think, yeah, I think that very often society can be caught up in this toxic positivity, right? This good vibes only you have to forgive to heal. And I mean, in reality, you don't owe that person. Anything. I mean, I don't harbor any hard feelings towards matter. He's no longer alive though. So I don't even have to consider thinking about him. But I have plenty of friends who have been victimized and are, you know, currently being re traumatized by having to go back to court or different things and they can't forgive and they don't want to and you know, they don't have to if you can find healing outside of forgiveness good for you. Who cares about that person? You don't have to let that person take anything else from you. And if it is too hard for you to forgive then move on. Christine O'Donnell 57:14 It's just such a refreshing perspective. Kara Robinson Chamberlain 57:18 Yeah, I mean, like in the good vibes, only all those things like I mean, it's just so unrealistic. Like we are all humans and none of us are perfect. And if forgiveness is not within you, and good vibes only is not within you then. Okay, cool. Collier Landry 57:34 I'm gonna die. I'm gonna die every time I see that value change that. I mean, like, what does that even mean? Good vibes. All right, so we're not allowed to have. I was like, I was like, so hot. I was like, what fantasy I see that. You know, good vibes only bro. I'm like, dude, like, have you ever been through any bullshit did like, Have you ever like been through some real fucking shit? On my program a lot. It's okay. I'm just like, I mean, have you like, are you core? Like, do you really understand like, what you're what you're throwing out there? Like, yeah, I know, it was super easy to be raised in your middle class household and have your supportive parents and family and a normal upbringing that does it. Like, I don't understand that. So don't sit here and say good vibes only bro. Because like, sometimes you get thrown into the fire, and you got no choice. Kara Robinson Chamberlain 58:20 Maybe it's the dark humor, but like, I resonate with that as well. Like, my pet peeve is, like this vibe that I see sometimes to where it's like she, she throws happiness, like, like confetti everywhere she goes, and I like that. Like who was okay, terrorists like that? Okay, Tara, Terra Newell 58:40 you are always happy and sweet and lovely. I don't know, well, like, I'm a very positive person. But, you know, there are days where I do tell people that you know, FYI, and I like hump that. So, um, the other day just for coming close to me. And then I will, I was just like, I think that's a trauma response. So I have to go to therapy and work on that one. But you know, I do have this moment. And I'm not all like, positive light and everything. Like, when I was doing yoga teacher training, I was the person seeing the darkest stuff. Just like see myself die over and over and over again. And then everybody was like, Oh, this is a great time. And I Well, yeah, no, I don't feel that way. I'm gonna go home and cry now. But then you always come back and you come back with the mindset that you got this you can, you can do this. And I think that that's the important thing about being positive is knowing that you can do this not letting your doubts affect you, but you have to feel everything and you have to process it. And you have to feel that dark stuff in order to get to the light Collier Landry 59:55 100% That's the badge of honor to that. I think that is the biggest thing with the When you look at the the sort of true crime, you know, obsession, and the people that are into these types of things, I think that like, you can talk about it all you want, bro but you don't have that you're not part of that club. You're not you don't have that badge of honor where you're like, I got I earned my stripes. You know, like, I got him. You know and I think that's always something you gotta hold dear even no matter what people are exploiting around you you go hey, you know what? Let's see you. Let's see what happens when the shit hits the fan how you are? Because yeah, you're mad because your nail got chip that had the blood splatter on it. Before You Dig up your mother in the basement, right? Anyways, Christine O'Donnell 1:00:46 it's something dark, Kara Robinson Chamberlain 1:00:47 it was dark. No, I get it. No, listen, if you want to talk about dark humor, I so as an aside a fun little story when I realized how dark my humor actually is. I have a friend and she was talking to me about oh, I have student loans. I'm still paying my student loans off. And I'm you know, 36 years old. And I was like, Yeah, I don't have any. She's like, how did you manage that? And I was like, oh, so I got kidnapped by a serial killer. And I got a whole lot of reward money and it paid for my college. And she was like, oh, so run towards the van that says free candy. Got it. I was like, yeah, it's a foolproof plan free college. And I was like, Oh, this is really dark humor. Okay, cool. Collier Landry 1:01:28 That's great. I love that. That happened. That's amazing. So you log on to it. Christine O'Donnell 1:01:36 So this is actually a really, like, good thing I think about these true crime conventions is you do find your people. Whether they are survivors or if they enjoy Am I glitching? Are y'all hearing that? I got a little okay. Collier Landry 1:01:56 I still hold the title of the worst audio problem Christine O'Donnell 1:01:59 did you see my child? Collier Landry 1:02:03 No, we get it we just have all your your rainbow I saw your reaction. Ring Light falling the whole thing. It was Oh my Christine O'Donnell 1:02:11 word. Um, yes, he anyway. But what I was says sharing is. So if you're someone who has dark humor, you'll find your dark humor friends or not. You'll fight like there's a good chance you might find your people. And I feel that way being here with you guys. I don't have the same kind of trauma story to share. But as a reporter who covered trauma secondhand, every day, for 10 years, I developed a pretty dark sense of humor. And and I feel like I'm you know, with my my people ask me Collier Landry 1:02:52 you know, that gives you street cred. Nightcrawler Nightcrawler minus Jake Gyllenhaal. Christine O'Donnell 1:02:59 Gosh, the stories I could share with you I bet going to right now after no time. Sorry, guys, he came back. Spider Man right underneath. Call your I know how you like to usually wrap up your show with a positive note. Is there one that we can share with generous today? Collier Landry 1:03:30 I think we did. But I also think that we did. I mean, look, at the end of the day, I think just under you know, I think approaching people like ourselves with compassion, with understanding, but also just just just allowing us to be the people that we are and not try to put us in this box of like, Oh, they're this crime victim or oh, they're this and this is why they're an interesting person, maybe just a moment ago. It's like, there's there's this thing in sales is and I remember hearing this, it's like if you want to get to know someone he asked about their kids, you know, if you're really just trying to be a salesperson, there's many people that just don't like don't come with the agenda of like, hey, oh, I'm really interested in that, like, Hey, what did you do last weekend? What are you into, you know, it's just that little bit of humanization. Because we are real, authentic people, all three of us are all four of us, you know, coming to us in that way of just understanding that we are not the crime that we represent, or that we were a part of, or evolved in by not by our own choice, by the way that just just just come at us like that, you know, I feel I feel that's a good way to do it. And but I mean, look, all of us are here. We're all functioning adults, which should be a testament to you know, my story, clerestory terror story, is that you can make it through these really extraordinary circumstances and come out the other side, fairly unscathed. Maybe a little sardonic and jaded, but you know, hey, they'll be alright. Kara Robinson Chamberlain 1:04:58 Yeah. I I struggled, I was like, did we just sit here and complain for an hour? And it was like, no, no, we said a lot of good things too. But But I mean, yeah, we are complex, three dimensional humans, we're not these two dimensional. And I think we're doing these kinds of things. Because we enjoy meeting people, we enjoy inspiring people and inspiring conversations. Right? Yeah. So remembering remembering that and, and just being willing to learn? Terra Newell 1:05:29 Yeah, well, and I want to say, you know, without the people that are obsessed with true crime and stuff, our stories wouldn't be out there. And there wouldn't be this awareness for people to know about in to get out of this toxic relationship, you know, in my case, or to be aware of how not to be kidnapped, or just to be, you know, with your case that was so complicated, but like, just to look at it and find little things that, like, help other people, you know, and I think, with you and I, it helps us being fighters and getting into that fight or flight mode, and that helps save our lives so much, and just teaching people that, hey, you have to get to this reaction to save yourself sometimes. Kara Robinson Chamberlain 1:06:18 Yeah, and then it's within all of us, right. Like, it's not something that we necessarily chose, like, your body automatically responds in a way that will help you survive. Collier Landry 1:06:30 They say they say people, you know, people that have been through these, you know, faced seemingly insurmountable odds and, and gone through these extraordinary circumstances, oftentimes have a fire that burns inside that is almost impossible to extinguish. And I think that's all three of us. Yeah. Well, on that note, what do you think, Christine O'Donnell? Christine O'Donnell 1:07:01 Well, it's been nice chatting with you guys. Thank you for bearing with me. I did want to say shout out. We have some people in the comment section after I need you to stop right now, honey. It's not doing it by itself. And we have Tina Preston, who's sharing a lot of really wonderful comments. She said, this is definitely an interesting and eye opening conversation makes you think about the people who have gone through trauma more. For sure. Faith writes, I think humor is a form of coping to and Uri says hey to faces I know. So I did I just wanted to take a minute just to thank the people who were listening. And yeah, thank you guys all for coming together and being a part of this. So last minute. I think this was a really great conversation. Collier Landry 1:08:00 This is fantastic. And then maybe hopefully, this will be saved on the channel. Kara, Tara always thank you so much. You have fun a stagecoach this weekend. Kara I can't wait to meet you in person this is gonna be great. And I know I have another I have another body. Kara Robinson Chamberlain 1:08:17 Now we have there's more of us. And if Terra Newell 1:08:20 you guys feel like FaceTiming me at crime con Oh, yeah, hopefully. Kara Robinson Chamberlain 1:08:26 Yes, I will totally. Collier Landry 1:08:28 We will do that. So on that note, I'm calling your Landry this. Our guest host today was the wonderful Christine O'Donnell from Bright Sighted network.

I'm Collier Landry, and this is Moving Past Murder. Thanks y'all.

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