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Threats and Plot Holes: The Radio Team that Interviewed A Murderer

Decades ago, Pastor Ernie Sanders looked into the murder of Collier’s mother,, Noreen Boyle and even interviewed his father Dr. John F. Boyle live on the radio. In Moving Past Murder episode 39, we hear from radio host Pastor Ernie Sanders and his associate Jim Kloos on what they’ve uncovered about the case over the years.

Did Collier’s father have help murdering his mother and hiding her body? For the first time, citizen investigators reveal the evidence they’ve gathered, which led them to a shocking new possibility in the murder case.

Episode Highlights:

  • The bag over the head: as a doctor, Collier’s father would’ve known whether or not his wife was dead. So why did he bury her with a bag covering her head if that’s not how he killed her?

  • Collier’s guests discuss how this fact could be a hole in the case against him.

  • “You better stop coming down to Mansfield. Things are going to get rough for you down here.”

  • The eerie warnings possible police officers allegedly gave to these amateur sleuths to stay away from the case.

  • The two ways to go to prison: how you can choose to go by yourself or drag your whole family down with you.

Link to Episode 38, "The Tape:"

Full Transcript:

Jim Kloos 00:02

I said, let me ask you one question. I said, Do you believe that Boyle knows when somebody's dead? Fingers? Yeah, I believe that. So why is there a bag over your head? And he said to me, I've always wondered about that. I've always wondered about that because Jack doesn't when you're dead, you don't have to put it back over anybody's head. He knows you're dead.

Intro Stinger 00:29

Testimony continued today in the most notorious criminal trial in Richland County history. Dr. John Boyle is accused of killing his wife, Noreen, and burying her body in the basement of his new home in Erie, Pennsylvania. The 12-year-old son finally took the stand. I heard a scream, I heard a thud. It was about this loud. We the jury find the defendant guilty.

Collier Landry 00:49

When I was twelve years old, my testimony sent my father to prison for murdering my mother. This podcast serves as a type of therapy and reconciliation for myself, and it is my hope that it helps anyone who has experienced deception, betrayal, and dark trauma. I’m Collier Landry, and this is Moving Past Murder.

Hey, movers what's going on. So today, we are going with the aftermath of the tape. The pastor has got this guy that he's going to bring on named Jim clues. And we're gonna call them right now. Sorry, I'm out of breath. This is kind of exciting. So now I'm calling the pastor. And we're gonna talk to Jim close, which is gonna be amazing, but I'm a little late. So sorry. A little. Hi, Pat, Ernie. Yeah. Hey, it's calling here. Okay, so I'm just gonna get into it. I'm calling Landry and this is moving past murder. I have on the line pastor Ernie Sanders, and Jim Cluse. And as you guys know, I was talking about this tape that I had found of an interview with my father. And when I contacted when we reached out to pastor Ernie, he had some additional information, which I'm really interested to hear. And he's brought his friend Jim Cluse on the program. And so Ernie and Jim, welcome to the program. How you guys doing?

Pastor Ernie Sanders 02:11

We're doing good, man. It's good to be here.

Collier Landry 02:15

Thank you so much. All right. So let's just a little recap. So my producer had reached out to you faster, Ernie. And you had called her back I believe was on Sunday. And we were chatting. And you guys were chatting and I called you and then you said you had Jim and so your original sort of thought with me was you were surprised that I thought my father was guilty. Correct. Right. Right. And you had said you had this this information and you were my father's pastor. So can you give me a little bit of background on how you know my father?

Pastor Ernie Sanders 02:52

Yeah, well, Jim, who was at the remember that put us in contact with him or put him in contact with us? That would have been Monsignor. Okay, the Monsignor. That's correct. And he asked us the see this, this go and see this man who was asking to see me apparently, he was listening to me on the radio through your father. Okay. So he sent me the paperwork, and I fill the paperwork out, send it in, was approved. And I started going, when I would go down to the prison where he was at, there was other inmates, but I visited him and he asked me to be his Pastor Rick. So I became his pastor record.

Collier Landry 03:36

So really fast for our listeners, what is what does that mean to be a pastor of record?

Pastor Ernie Sanders 03:40

The pastor record means that you are his pastor, when, when something happens, you are to be notified. If he should die, then I would be told that he has to do the funeral and so on and so forth. Or if you needed needed me, I would I would be there to minister to him. So that means I would be his personal pastor.

Collier Landry 04:04

Got it. So that's sort of standard operating procedure in the prison system in the crisis races in like the United States or in Ohio. Got it.

Pastor Ernie Sanders 04:12

Right. Okay. I was the pastor of over. Over the years, over 45 years spanned over 100 inmates.

Collier Landry 04:22

Oh, wow. Okay. So you've been around?

Pastor Ernie Sanders 04:26

Yeah, yeah. We get we were up on death row for 45 years.

Collier Landry 04:33

Wow. Yeah. So first of all, who is Monsignor?

Pastor Ernie Sanders 04:37

Again, let us describe my senior he was he was a private detective, but go ahead and tell him the rest.

Jim Kloos 04:46

Monsignor was a guy who was working on the shepherd murder case. And also some other cases, the through the shepherd case I met Monsignor we talked for a number of years And I finally met him. And he was the one that said to me go down and see this guy, Dr. Jack Boyle. So that was I went he was down in

Pastor Ernie Sanders 05:10

whatever the one is, don't worry. We're in correctional Dennison today, one correctional. So

Jim Kloos 05:14

I went down there and I saw him. And he told me the story. I said, Tell, told me the story. So he told me his story. When he got done, I said, Jack, every three people in America who can believe your story? He goes, what don't you believe about? So let me just give you an example. I said, women don't throw their credit cards at you, though. Yeah, remember that? They actually go to Home Depot or Lowe's and buy a big TV or they buy a snowblower. That's what they do. They don't throw credit cards to you. So we have nice little chaps.

Collier Landry 05:55

Interesting. So So now really fast. You said this Monsignor guy. So you when you say the shepherd case, are you talking? Are you referring to Dr. Sam Shepherd? That case in Ohio? Yeah. Oh, yeah. And, and for those of us that don't know, because I'm not completely brought to speak on the case. But Dr. Sam Shepard was, uh, was convicted of murdering his wife. Correct?

Jim Kloos 06:24

Correct. The first trial? Yes.

Collier Landry 06:27

And yeah. And then that conviction was overturned and I believe his son actually lives out here in Hollywood and wrote a few books and things of that nature. I actually love to talk to him, too. He's a guest. I wanted to get on the show. What's his name?

Pastor Ernie Sanders 06:40

They deposed me. I was deposed for Marilyn Shepard's murder.

Collier Landry 06:49

Wow. Okay. So then, but that conviction got overturned, is that correct? He was exonerated or he was exonerated posthumously.

Pastor Ernie Sanders 06:57

We tried to. We tried to do try to get it. I was only seven years old. And I'm the same age as his son chip. When Marilyn was killed. Now, the reason that I was disposed, was Jack Fisher was Sam Shepard cellmate for 10 years. And I was Jack's pastor. And so when I would go down there, he would tell me, you know, Doug said this and duck said that. And so he wanted, because what happened was, with Jack, when he first was put in Sam was the doctor had to prison, the physician. His son was trying to sue the state of Ohio chip Shepard was trying to sue the state of Ohio, for wrongful imprisonment, and try to get the case overturned the corruption and that was unbelievable. I can tell you the story of what it's a long story, but basically, he had a crooked I mean, a very crooked lawyer, who had paid to two inmates to try to get his story. Auto Richard Amberlynn. And Richard everlean is one of the guys who used to be shepherds, window washer and maintenance man. And they accused him of killing Maryland. And basically, this crooked lawyer told these two black guys there at the prison, that inmates that if they, they were to get us a beat a confession out of everlean He'd get him out of prison. And that's exactly what they tried to do. And they killed him. Then I had warned the warden that this was going to happen. And I mean, it's a long story, and then it happened. And they wouldn't they got him into ground real quick before the story could get out. So I went to the to the prosecutor there in Cleveland. And I told him what they did. He said, so he checked it out and said, Yeah, you're right. They killed him as what are you going to do about it? He says nothing. It's not my jurisdiction. And so I mean, the corruption here in Ohio is unbelievable. I mean, there is it's a mile wide and a mile deep.

Collier Landry 09:14

Well, I mean, I think the corruption I mean, I, you know, I think that the corruption in the incarceration system in general is probably pretty widespread, too. I mean, let's just look at the fact that drugs keep getting into the president, but prisoners don't get out of prison to get the drugs but you know, that's a whole other story. But I think yeah, I think there's definitely some truth to that so Okay, so just really fast on the shepherd thing, so they weren't so the window washer really did kill Marilyn Shepherd.

Pastor Ernie Sanders 09:47

No, no, Emily didn't kill and Jack or Sam children.

Collier Landry 09:55

Say, oh, Sam, Sam. Sam actually did kill his wife. You Yo, I'm messaging my producer right now about this Dr. Sam Shepherd thing, which is kind of crazy to me to the SAM Shepherd thing is nuts to me. But Sam Shepherd was ultimately guilty of killing his wife. As he says,

Pastor Ernie Sanders 10:19

the reason I got to know that is Jack Fisher was his cellmate. And when when Everlane when they were going after Everlane kwento and they were, they were deposing me. And all of this, Jack Fisher, he called me and he said, Look, he said, that everlean fella he know I was both of their pastors. He never, you know, more killed her than that. I did. He said, Sam, did I sort of body you know it did? He said he told me he did. He said he was they were soulmates. He said, he told me, he did. He said that she was pregnant with a black man's baby. And that's why he killed us know what happened. With that, I put Jack Fisher on the radio, he said this on the radio, he spilled his guts right on the radio. And they tried to kill him there in the prison, but he he got it done. And everlean called me and told me they're gonna try to kill me down here. I called the warden told the warden. The next thing I know, I get a call from the warden saying I'm sorry, but Pete Richard died. But I, I'm out with I got a really bad case of the flu. And I'm sorry, I can't meet with you. So that's how it went. And then when the reason I was called in to be deposed, was because I had spent all the time with the two of these fellas. And they wanted to know exactly before the trial, exactly what I knew. Before one case, I got called to testify. So that's what that's all about there. But I guess we're probably here to talk about 13.

Collier Landry 12:11

No, but this is also but like, but this is also interesting, because obviously the doctor Sam Shepard, I've wanted to interview chip. I didn't realize it was chip, but I wanted to interview him on this show when I started it last year, because I was like, Oh, I mean, that's like the second famous doctor murder trial in are the most famous, I think in Ohio History. And I believe, even you know, it was made into a feature film called The Fugitive with Tommy Lee Jones and Harrison Ford, if I'm not mistaken. And I know that chip was trying to get this conviction overturned. I know that he ended up moving out here as a writer. It's kind of weird. Our paths are very sort of similar in a lot of ways. And his father was ultimately guilty. So I guess so this detective Monsignor was like, Hey, I have this guy. You should talk to him. And then you talk to my father. And so. So Jim, how do you fit into all of this?

Jim Kloos 13:09

Well, like I say, I worked on the Sheppard case. And then I worked on, you know, you sent me down to see your dad. And after I saw your dad, and they set up a meeting for me to meet. I knew her as Sherri Campbell. So we went down to Ashland, and she was at the Perkins and you walk in, you walk in the door. And, you know, when I walk into a room, I always look around the room, you know, and to see the police that were sitting there in plainclothes to check me out. So I go in Sherry's there, along with your stepfather with stepfather.

Collier Landry 13:46

Step. It was my stepfather. Yeah, so he's there. BB George. My stepfather, George.

Jim Kloos 13:55

Yeah. So he's there, and so is Sherry. So we go through the whole thing. And I think your stepfather said, Well, you know, Jack's gone. And that's the end of that. And then Sherry said, you know, you're never gonna, you're never going to meet my mother. You're never going to meet the baby. And then, so, a couple of weeks later, she said, You ought to come down, you know, and look at the place and everything. Like we're all this stuff happened, because she had an uncle was involved in the purchase of the jackhammer. And so we went over and I never met him. But we went over where they taken this brick from up in Erie and brought it down to Parke Davis his property, and we went over there, it was all gone. And then we at some point in time, I did meet Charlotte. Oh, when we got over there, but they said you'll never meet her, and you'll never meet the baby. And I never did meet the baby.

Collier Landry 15:00

So she told you that she wouldn't use other via the baby just so people can have some context. The baby me and my sister, Chrissy, or Christine, who was born 12 days before my father was arrested. My half sister,

Jim Kloos 15:13

right? And I never did. And so it's kind of a funny thing when we got down there. You know, I can't remember why. But I ended up in front of Charlotte. And I said to Charlotte, Hey, Charlotte, I've been around the road the pike a couple of times. And I said, there's no doubt in my mind that if you were available, and Sherry was available, I wouldn't go I wouldn't have nothing to do it, Sherry. And she kind of laughed, and she goes, yes, my girlfriend's all telling me they told me the same thing.

Collier Landry 15:48

So you were you thought shower that was cute.

Jim Kloos 15:51

Very woman. guy went many years ago, but I went out to see Jack's mother. And when I went out there, when I was talking to Jack, I said, Jack, I said, I don't know what's going on here. And I said, I have to, I have to tell you, that that there's two ways to go to prison for life. Here's the number one way, you just go to prison for life. But there's another way to go to prison for life. That's to go to prison for life. I haven't your mother sell her house and get sent all the money. I have. I have a letter at home that says put all your watches in a in a box. I've got a great move a lawyer. I've got a great move to make. I said So Jack, you can go to prison for life. Or you can go to prison where your mother loses her house. So Jack went away where his mother sold her house and whatever she did with her money. And of course, he had a brother. Jack had a brother and I think I was trying to do this a long time ago. But Jarrah was involved with thick and naval intelligence. And yeah, I never met him. But he was behind a lot of this stuff. You know? And that was that was pretty much it. Like I say I I want to see Jack's mother and I'm sure she's dead now.

Collier Landry 17:15

Oh, yeah. My my grandmother. Oh, you mean Sherry's mother, Sherry's mother. Jerry's mother? Yes. Charlotte actually passed away last year. I think it was 2021 she passed away or maybe it was 2020. She passed away recently though. Charlotte did.

Jim Kloos 17:32

Right. But but once then. I'm sure it was Jack's mother. She lived in Boardman right?

Collier Landry 17:43

That's correct. Yes. My grandmother lived in Boardman and she passed away in 1998 1998. I actually was never notified that she passed away. I actually called the house to speak to her because she had moved from her apartment. To I'd seen her probably maybe a few weeks before that, from her apartment to my my father's sister's house. His sister, Mimi, or Mary Ellen. And she. I called and then my cousin Roop. I answered the phone. I said, Can I speak to GRAEME And she said Nana died. And I was like, Excuse me. And she and then I got my my uncle was there, CJ, who are you referring to the Naval Intelligence guy? And he said, Oh, yeah, you know, Oh, yeah. You know, grant me passed away or whatever. I said, Okay, so what were you guys gonna call me? Oh, well, we didn't, you know, the whole thing is, you know, basically, that day was the memorial service. And I lived in Columbus at the time. And so I just really jumped in my car, and drove up there. Because nobody notified me, they would have put her in the ground, I wouldn't even know like, you didn't know, we were told me my grandmother passed away, I would have had to figure it out. And I was having a relationship with her. I loved my grandmother very much. And, you know, this is one of the things that consequences of violence. Now, you know, whether or not you know, obviously, we probably have a conflicting opinion about my father's guilt or innocence. But still, the fact remains is that you guys, you know, you know, one of the things I do with this program is, you know, I talked about the consequences of violence. And here, you know, you're saying something, which I think was very poignant. Jim, is where you're saying, you know, there's two ways to go to prison, there's one where you just go to prison for life, that is one of them already, kind of drag your mother and your family through everything. And my father did that. And, you know, that's, that's an unfortunate thing. And it ultimately like this. This whole situation destroyed my family, and I was abandoned when I was in the and I was remanded to the foster care system. And then, you know, my family didn't want to take me that's not only my father's side of the family, but my mother's side of the family and then they claimed he tried to but my mother's side of the family hated my about my father so much. They were like, you look like your father. We can't we don't want you. And then my father other side of the family they were so that whole thing was just was his nuts. I mean, obviously, and I'm and I'm an 11 year old child when it happens and 12 years old when when I'm dealing with all of this, and I'm pretty much the only grown up in this situation that was just like, deal with it and move on with his life. So I'm excited unfortunate. Yeah, go ahead, go for it.

Pastor Ernie Sanders 20:22

Let me ask you this, because of why why do you believe that your father was guilty? Because I'll tell you what he told me. And all I know is what, what he told me and then what I got from some of the other people that we were talking to Monsignor and others, but why do you believe he was guilty?

Collier Landry 20:43

Well, because I so, you know, I heard the murder happen, which is what I testified I heard the thuds saw they woke me up there literally was like a scream. And then I hear the footsteps. Now, obviously, I'll see my father murdered my mother. Because I don't believe if I did that I would still be here. I mean, it's not it's not hard to dig a bigger hole, if you will. And not to be crass about it, but it's the truth. But I also, you know, my father's demeanor, the next morning, when I come down and say, Where's my mother, he goes, Mommy took a little vacation, Collier. And my father had a very violent temper, I saw it, and I saw my father's demeanor. And I and as now I'm an adult, right, and you know, is a child, you're figuring it out, but you know, something's up. But as I think back on it, as an adult, I really do realize that, you know, that his behavior was that of, you know, either a sociopath or a narcissist, I think that he has all those, all of those qualities. And, but but, you know, I also think at the same time, you know, going through this as an adult, you know, trying to examine, I mean, at the end of the day, I don't want to believe my father's a murderer, because he's my father. I mean, credit my relationship with him is not what it was, and or not whatever could be or anything, and he did this heinous, I believe he did this heinous act, I know how he behaved with me and my mother, but also like, you know, you don't really, you really don't want to believe your father killed your mother. And like a little a little boy does not want to believe that despite the relationship with your father, you don't want to believe that. And maybe call that a solipsistic sort of looking at it going, Okay, well, I don't want to be labeled a murderer, or I don't want to think I'm capable of some things or part of it is like, you idolize your parents. And if you're a boy, you usually more idolize your father than your mother, you know, you because you're this connection, obviously, agenda Oriole connection, agenda connection. So, you know, there's these sorts of things. So of course, you don't really want to believe that. So I sort of kind of had to reconcile that over my entire life and still do to a large degree at this moment in time. But that's what I believe. That's what I know, I saw, that's what I heard. And, you know, and his behaviors and the way he has changed his story and things like that. But I'm also very interested to hear what you guys have to say. So what you had referred you and said, you've spoken to some people, I believe, in law enforcement, or some prisoners are a mixture of both, or, obviously, you guys have done in a very significant amount of research into or had at the time, you know, done some significant research into thing into this case, or into corruption in Ohio in general, which led you to this case, right. I mean, I think that's really how you guys, how you guys come to this is because there's corruption and you're aware of it in other cases, and you're like, Oh, well, this is interesting. Here's another, you know, if it walks like a duck, and it talks like a duck, perhaps it's a duck. So you're trying to you're trying to do your best. Yeah.

Pastor Ernie Sanders 23:45

Yeah, there's a number of things that took place. And of course, I can tell you what your father told me and then I'll then I'll go back and tell you why. Why I believe I, you know, I believed that he was probably telling our thought he was telling the truth. And here's, here's why. Because what he had told me, and Jim, you remember, he had told me that there was situations going he was set up that he was set up, and it told me that there was the corruption that was taking place there in Mansfield. And your mother Laureen was was involved with a, a woman named Black but their last name black, and basically, she was her husband left her as pretty much the person running the entire Mansfield situation. Now, Jim and I were just looking into some of these things and because of the radio program you know, they tried to intimidate me, okay. I got I got fall 17 miles down Route 71 with a state trooper right on my bumper. 70 miles and I, I said exactly at the speed limit. And then he pulled me over. And he came up and he. He said, The reason I'm putting you over as I'm concerned about your safety, I says, I wouldn't speed and I said, he said, Well, technically, when you pass the truck, he went two miles over. But that's not why I pulled you over. You say, I'm very concerned about your safety. And this very powerful people in Mansfield is concerned about your safety. And he said, you didn't have your seatbelt law. And I said, you saw me take it off. He said, That's right. But I also saw you put it on you were already on the highway when you left the prison. You were the ways down the highway, and we were watching you through binoculars. And that was true. I didn't I didn't put it on while I was going down the highway quite well. So he followed me and he says no, because we want you to take care of we don't want bad things to happen to you. We're going to just, he's, I know you have credit cards. We know that they know a lot about me. And he says automobile is your drive, and I know that you can afford to pay the fine. And so I'm just gonna look find you right here. And you can pay me right here. So you don't have to go back to Mansfield because you know, we, you know, like I said, we're concerned about your safety.

Collier Landry 26:25

already. Do you live? Do you? Did you live in Mansfield at the time? No,

Pastor Ernie Sanders 26:29

no, I live on jugs.

Collier Landry 26:32

Yeah, that's what I thought. So why would you go back to Mansfield to pay a fine, that doesn't. So he was a very, very

Pastor Ernie Sanders 26:41

back in those days, you had to go to court to pay the fine. And so you had to go back to Mansfield, where there was just outside of that he was a state trooper was from Mansfield, and that's where he said, I committed the offense.

Collier Landry 26:56

So you weren't in advance? Because you were in Warsi or whatever. Warren which

Pastor Ernie Sanders 27:01

I was 17 miles down. No, no. 71 heading back north towards Cleveland. Sure, when he pulled me over. And then we also got a call. I got a call telling me that there was that the radio program was making some very powerful people nervous. And that would be good if I was to quit talking about oil and about what was taking place. Now. There was a fella named Marty hands, Marty Yes.

Collier Landry 27:38

rotten to the core, rotten to the core. Barton yet who wrote rotten to the core and rotten to the core two and a couple other ones. Right. There's more. So but we're really fast. So we're so at the time, because you said you said somebody called you about the radio program. Were you talking about my father case on the radio program and about this sort of fishiness that you suspected per Monsignor per Jim or Martin or what how did that why did they threaten the radio program was as other things are?

Pastor Ernie Sanders 28:09

Your father told me this that, that your mother had gotten involved with this, this there was trafficking. And we had a police a former guide identified himself as a foreign police officer, he he contacted me, I let him to the ward. He. He told me his story. And he felt that he wasn't going to be around long. And so I let him to the Lord. And he told me that he his job was to pick up children in Detroit, drive them into Mansfield, and these crooked judges would give them a false birth certificate. And they would literally be sold. And everybody knew that there was this this human trafficking thing coming out of Detroit there was it would literally have auctions now. This is what he told me now he told me that because because he came on the radio and spilled his guts that he was probably a dead man. Okay. Now, your dad had told me that your your mother was involved with this woman to black and there was a lot of corruption and that your mother had had said that she wanted here's what he told me and I'm whether it's any of this to I don't know, I'm telling you what he told me that she went to miss wax and said she wanted a bigger piece of the action. And that, that because of that they killed her. And they decided to get rid of him by by setting him up. He told me that they had set him up with a prostitute. I think her name was sherry. I don't know Jim, was it as a woman?

Jim Kloos 29:52

I'm not sure. Okay. That

Pastor Ernie Sanders 29:55

he had set her up, set him up with this prostitute and that he was He was saying that prostitute before, and I guess after your mother died, your mother was killed and then murdered. And then what happened was, I guess then she turned over on him. So this is this is what he told me. No, I believe a lot of that. Um, because well, we got the threats we got remember? Detective? What was it detective? Lemon, Jim

Jim Kloos 30:33

lemon? Yeah. Okay. What was it they told you they get I believe they gave your home a call to until June. Well, we put an ad in the paper says seeking information gursha Johnson, Debbie Myers. And Noreen Boyle. And we got a lot of phone calls. And we got a lot of threats. It was very interesting. I'll just say this. I first went down there. It looked very cut and dried to me. And as time went on, and I, I had a stroke a couple years ago. So I'm not as sharp as I used to be. But

Collier Landry 31:13

somebody's good to me. Sounds pretty, like a pretty. It sounds like you're doing pretty good to me.

Jim Kloos 31:18

That's all coming back. So I said to Jack, I said, Are you an honest person? Can I believe what you're saying? He goes, Yeah, I go. Why? Here's the question. You could buy 100 houses. You could buy 100 houses not only in Erie, but also in Mansfield. Why did you buy a house next to Jean hearts? And when he did, he looked at me like, well, you're not as dumb as I thought you were Jean Hart. If you read all those books by Marty, as his name is in there, a lot of a lot of the times, so to be living next to a guy like that, who also testified against your father. He was the guy that says I saw the car, pull up the drive. I wouldn't I was the number one I wouldn't have. I wouldn't have let Jean Hart shine my shoes, let alone testify in life against me. Because the prosecutor she was prosecution witness. So why would your dad buy a house? Let's you have to collect that. What Why would he do that?

Collier Landry 32:22

Well, do you think that my father knew? Do you think that my father knew who Jean Hart was? Because you know, we

Jim Kloos 32:29

didn't, you wouldn't have bought a house next to me.

Collier Landry 32:34

So do you think so? Why do you think my father bought the house? Well, he was he trying to get protection? Or was he trying to be a part of some sort of illegal activity? Or because of my mother like, this is this? So this is all very, I mean, this is all very interesting. And I'm definitely not, I'm definitely not refuting what you guys are saying or anything like that, or what you believe. But what I am, what I am sort of kind of coming to my own conclusion is, or this is maybe the conclusion that I'm drawing, is that my father, I believe that my father is a sociopath and a narcissist, and, you know, look, he's been able to convince a lot of people with a lot of things. What I'm wondering is in my father, if my father is, you know, I believe my father would be guilty. So let's just say he, you know, he's guilty, he's incarcerated, right? That he might have heard the stories or read Martin's book, or heard stories in prison, because that's what happens when you go to prison, you hear about all these things. And when you guys reached out to him, or he, you know, I wouldn't put it past my father, to try to involve you guys in something for his own benefit. And try to manipulate it in a way that suits his narrative. So as far as the house, you know, we moved to we moved from Dahlgren, Virginia, to Mansfield, Ohio, so we wouldn't have known Jean Hart. So I don't know how that plays in. So that's what I'm interested in. So how would that have happened? I mean, this Jean Jean Hart, so famous,

Jim Kloos 34:15

if he didn't know when he bought the house, and I'm not sure how he bought the house. I can tell you this. Shortly after he got there. The neighbors would have told him oh, by the way, that's Jean Hart. Everybody knows who he is. Now. Now, let me just get two things. And if I could real quick,

Collier Landry 34:31

who is who is genius? Who is Jean Hart? Really faster than everybody knows, because he was a sheriff right or? I don't know.

Jim Kloos 34:36

Sure. I think it was a sheriff or police. Got so. And he's in my book. You look up a book, his name's in the index. So So I got a homicide detective that worked on your case, your dad's case, and we got in front of him when we were social. I knew a lot of people down there.

Collier Landry 34:54

And I said to Dave, so Dave bass wars that you're talking about?

Jim Kloos 34:58

Oh, that's exactly what that's another Gotta you and I need to talk about because he's the guy that was babysitting you while your dad was on trial for his life. He was. And then when the trial is over, he tried to adopt you. And even even judge Chris says, You can't adopt this kid. You can't adopt this kid. Nobody tries to do that trying to adopt. You're the lead detective, and you're trying to adopt a kid that that's his father's on murder, murder trial. That's it. That's That's unheard of, and never happens. So I got some of this. I can't think of his name. I can't think of his name right now. But I got in front of him. And we had a nice talk. And he goes, I hear you in the munch the senior group. I said, Yeah, I hear out. And he says, Well, he goes, What do you think happened here? I said, let me ask one question. I said, Do you believe that Boyle knows when somebody's dead? Fingers? Yeah, I believe that. So why is there a bag over your head? And he said to me, I've always wondered about that. I've always wondered about that. Because Jack doesn't when you're dead. You don't have to put a bag over anybody's head. He knows you're dead. So within wrestling, they send me up to see your mother's grave. She's up in Towson, Maryland. And what have they done college town, and you go up there. And if you want to buy a book at three o'clock in the morning, you want to buy a book, a magazine or music. Town was always open. So I went over to your mother's grave. And when I got over there, I came back to town and Monsignor called me up and he goes, I want you to get together with the coroner in Akron. His name is Cox. So I sent him I sent him an appointment to meet with him. And we went down and it was it was a spaghetti house, I think in Solon. We went to a nice spaghetti house, we're eating everything. And I finally turned him and I said to him, Dr. Cox, I said, Can I be frank with you? He goes, Yeah, I said, between you and me, I really don't care who killed Noreen Boyle. I said, but if you if you if you look into her, you're gonna go to prison. And he and he laughed in my face. Just like this. So we finished our dinner. They brought away Wait,

Collier Landry 37:18

hold on, hold on. I'm sorry. Sorry. Hold on. He said so if you look at her you're going to go to prison. Is that what you said? Sorry. Yeah, he was in New

Jim Kloos 37:25

York. He was gonna re autopsy your. So you look at her. You're gonna go to prison. He laughed in my face. I come back, the dog Noreen up rotarod Down to Akron talks looked at her. And maybe about two months later, three months later, the city of Akron saw improprieties in the coroner's office. He was indicted, found guilty, lost his medical license. And I think he did three to five, I had to look this up three to five months in prison. So he calls me at home and he says, This was Dr. Cox. I said, Hi, Doctor, how are you? He said you want to meet down at that spaghetti house again? I said, Yeah, fine. We drove down there. We went to spaghetti house. He turns to me like this. And he goes, I got arrested. I lost my license. I spent five months in jail. I said, Doc, Doc, I looked you right in the face. And I said to you, if you look at her, you're gonna go to prison. I said he laughed in my face. Then these doctors. They have their social side of their human side and the doctor side. I said, Did you see the kidney beans because New Orleans last meal was chilly. I said, Did you see the kidney beans? He goes, Yeah. Yeah. So that's fine. That's a fact that happens.

Collier Landry 38:50

So it really was my mother's so well, because I gave DNA. You know, my, my stepfather. My daughter father took me down there. I gave DNA and I believe my aunt. My mother's sister gave DNA and they tied the body. So it really was her body is what you're saying?

Jim Kloos 39:06

What was your body? Everybody knows her body. Got it. Joy was the big reporter down there handling this and

Collier Landry 39:16

I spoke to Ted joy. For the Acrobat for the Akron Beacon journal. It was Tom Adgate was that was the lawyer. Yes. Right.

Jim Kloos 39:25

Like you know, it's funny when I Met Your Dad. It's kind of key, I'll admit, I like these cages. And so I said them. Give me something to work on. He said, I'm gonna give you three addresses. Where are they? These children ended up one of them ended up at your house, whatever that I never met that girl but whatever her name was. I don't know her name. Elizabeth.

Collier Landry 39:56

Elizabeth or Elizabeth or Caitlyn? Yeah, she got adopted. Yeah, she was adopted by Oh, my by my foster parents.

Jim Kloos 40:02

So I had three addresses. The one address was in Avon, Ohio. And I drove up there and I got a little lunch and a sandwich and some of the drink and I parked up front of that house. And I'm sitting there eating my sandwich, drinking some pop, you know, and a woman came out of the front door of that house with a little Chinese baby in her thing, and I have to tell you, Mrelief that really floored me, you know? Oh, so there's another Chinese babies, they call them Chinese dolls. Another Chinese doll up here, I only went to the one house. I never went to the other two.

Collier Landry 40:42

So, okay, so But hold on. So really fast. So Jim, you know, what do you do you think my father is guilty or innocent? Or maybe we were maybe a little bit of both. Well, what do you think? What do you think?

Jim Kloos 41:00

What are the what doesn't matter if what I think I told you, I told you enough watches that make you at least thing. And I have to tell you. What really got me was the fact that when that gates and joy and all that fell apart, and that all fell apart, your dad became a Muslim. The one thing we did find out and I can't remember his name. Jack's attorney in the trial was also who?

Collier Landry 41:28

Robert Whitney or, or Charlie Robinson. Charlie Robinson was my dad's door divorce attorney. And then Whitney was the was the criminal defense lawyer, like the real criminal defense lawyer.

Jim Kloos 41:38

I can't remember now. But one of those two guys, while your dad was on trial was also represent representing the judge that was on the case. I can't remember his name either. So he was representing the judge on the case. And anytime that happens, except in your dad's case, that trial gets overthrown. You know, I'm saying,

Collier Landry 42:02

right. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, absolutely. So conflict of interest.

Jim Kloos 42:06

never grown. Why? Why was the number overthrown? And then somebody called me one time, we had a lot of phone calls. And there was a phone call, some guy called up and said, you know, you've got to stop coming down to Mansfield. I said, Who are you, you puke? And he goes, Well, you don't need to know. But things are gonna get rough for you down here. And I said, Look, I said I would spend two seconds with a threat like that. So a Hells Angel guy called one night? And he said, Geez, do you need any protection? This is from what? Well, for what? So it was funny. I knew a lot of the people down there, but a lot of the people I didn't know. So I went down to the tribe, where they're going to have the hearing. I went down to the hearing when they got down to the hearing. I got an elevator and who comes in the door? I bless them now. Do you know who that is? Oh, yeah. You know, who do you know who that is? Tell, you know,

Collier Landry 43:05

what was his name? Sorry.

Pastor Ernie Sanders 43:07

I live in

Collier Landry 43:10

Bob lemon. I don't know who Bob lemon is no.

Jim Kloos 43:13

So that's another whole story. But anyway, he got on. And he looks at me and he goes, I'd never met him before. And he looks at me and he goes, What are you doing here, Jim? I said, What are you doing here, Bob? He says you're causing quite a stir down here. I said, Well, it's kind of a corrupted Tom, if he asked me. And I said, Yeah, I said, I said we've had quite a times out there he goes, Yeah, with them on senior group. I said, Yeah. You take something like that to get to the bottom of the crap that's going on down here. I said, Yeah. I said, Bob, I wish I could think of her name. The police officer that killed that woman that threw her down in the river. We should get think of her name.

Collier Landry 43:56

What was that? Is that? Was that an Ohio? Was that in Ohio? Midfield?

Pastor Ernie Sanders 44:01

Right. Yeah.

Jim Kloos 44:02

I think it was named. But anyway. I said, Yeah. I said, you know, that girl? I said, I said, I wish I could think of her name. I said, What's that girl that killed that? You know, it was killed by that police officer on duty? He goes, Oh, yeah, he goes, I actually knew her. I said you knew her? Yeah, Margie coffee. And who was the cop that killed her. So as Margie coffee, Charles Oswald was the cop Lieutenant until he kills her throws her down the river. I said, I said, you know, I've been down, you're checking holes, all this stuff. And I said, What about Margie coffee? He goes, I knew her. I said you knew her. I said, you guys were passing her around like a piece of candy until she became a Jehovah Witness. And then she came up to find out who was the father of the baby that she aborted. And they found out it was Charles Oswald. And that's what he got killed. And he goes something about, yeah, it's a small town down here. I said, No kidding. And I said, you know, I said when we found out to Chris tried to add that, Chris, when that's why I do adopt Collier. I said, Boy, we all hit the fan over that. And I said, even lemon says to me, yeah, but yeah, but he never got her. I said, No. I said, you know who, you know who got her? And I said about your father in law? I said, your father in law got her? And I says, No, Who's he? Yeah, he goes, he goes, I'm related to her. And we raised her

Collier Landry 45:38

way, man, Father law. Sorry, who are you speaking to? Who are you speaking about? I'm so sorry. Remember

Jim Kloos 45:43

the voices in

Collier Landry 45:45

you to me? My adopted father George. Yeah, here you're talking about? Because he wasn't related to anybody my parents so well, you know, really? Ziggler and then there's Reagan box. There's the Reagan box, who are the foster people. They got Elizabeth, my sister. They kept they kept

Jim Kloos 46:06

her father in law's father. adoptive father.

Collier Landry 46:10

adoptive father's name was George George Ziggler.

Jim Kloos 46:13

Ziggler. I said, it says very interesting. I said, we checked a lot of people. And the one person we found was Ziggler. I says he anybody's you and lemon said, Yeah, I'm related to him. I said it's a small world, small world. So make a long story short, Sherry had a haberdasher shop, often tremble. And I went down there a number of times, when I got down there. You know, she was seeing a bunch of guys down there. And they can't take his name either.

Collier Landry 46:46

Was what do you mean? What do you mean? She was saying What do you mean when she you say she was seeing a bunch of guys downward? She had a little shop she was she was seeing a bunch of guys like she was selling clothes, or was she selling other services? Or is she selling services? Is that what you're saying?

Jim Kloos 47:03

She was selling clothing. Got it. Got your I would go to see her a couple of times in the story, the one doing good. And then finally close. When I went over there, there was a guy came into the store. I can't remember his name. But anyway, he came to the store and started talking. I think he was swearing in front of her. I finally stood up and I said, Hey, you, you can't you can't be talking to this woman like this. And again, it looks like who the hell are you? And I said, sure. He said, Jim, please leave just please leave. So I went out to the car went out to his car. When he got to his car. I checked the plate, you know that I took, check the VIN number. Got the VIN number, give it to Monsignor. His people looked it up. And he called me up and he goes either that guy is a police officer or he is a GA well, he doesn't look like

Collier Landry 47:56

maybe a little best.

Jim Kloos 47:58

And he was the guy that later hitter. And in Charlotte said, the blood that came out of her head was like in about a foot and a half across. He was she later married him she married him.

Collier Landry 48:14

Wait, hold on, hold on. So Charlotte married. Married. Sherry married the guy who killed who killed my mother? Is that what you're saying?

Jim Kloos 48:25

Oh, no, no, I'm not saying that. I'm saying Oh, got it.

Collier Landry 48:30

Are you talking about like Woolgar are you talking about Mike Walker?

Jim Kloos 48:34

Yeah, he's the guy he came up with, I think was a red car. And I went over and I checked the VIN number. And when I went out there and Monsignor said, That guy's either a cop, or he's a car salesman. And even at the beginning of this clip together, we were talking about how he went on to Perkins. And when, when we went into Perkins, you look around the room you see, like five police officers, and plainclothes. So what they do is they protect each other. You see, I'm saying in other words, if you're you ain't going anywhere.

Collier Landry 49:08

So do you think Mike Woodard was a police informant? Is that what you were saying?

Jim Kloos 49:13

I never, you know, first of all, that was toward the very end of the case. And very interesting, because at some point, because Sherry

Collier Landry 49:21

got married, she got married to him after my father and she was married to my nose, a very abusive relationship. I think that he had an alcohol problem. I believe Jean Hart also had an alcohol problem I was told,

Jim Kloos 49:32

right? It's funny. We were down south of Mansfield a couple of maybe two years ago, we were down there. They were saying that shit is bananas. We started talking about this case. Everybody knew about it. There's a lot of people say, oh, yeah, there's my bathroom. Without me talking about the woman that owned the stables said she was Shuri and her daughter comes down here and writes I said, no kidding. I says I've I've lost track of everybody down there. And the and she's said she married a rich guy, south of Mansfield. This is an old timer. He's got all kinds of money. And that's the last I heard her name until I got this phone call yesterday. Like even I told boil, I said, boil. I said you're gonna do you're gonna do every minute of it. I said if you don't if you don't become honest, and what I ended up losing, I heard, I heard he had a chop shop in a medical situation, and that they there was gold smuggling, there was smuggling of gold, and then this child thing, and at some point time, I got a phone call one night and the guy says to me, are you legit? I said, Yeah, that were legit. And he goes, What do you know? What do you know about First Presbyterian? I said, I don't want to talk about that. I said, that was a child molestation church, where we're, I think I forgot everything. 10 to 20 people came forward and said, our child was molested here. The city of Mansfield said don't tell anybody. Don't tell anybody. One guy when one guy was put away, I think is young guy used to even know his name. He got put away when he got put away. Other families at church had a press conference, you go look it up on the paper and said, We have been lied to our children were attacked, our children were molested. This is what happened. And they promised me they're gonna get to the bottom and they put one guy away. That's the kind of city you're living in. People were living in.

Collier Landry 51:38

When I was initially thinking about this conversation I was, you know, when I when I had heard about you years ago, I was like, you know, and I mean, this with all due respect, I'm not and I don't feel this way. But I was like, Oh, these are you know, a bunch of crazies like Kooks, they're making this stuff up. But talking to you. You're very, you're very, I mean, like I said, like, if you told me you had a stroke, like you're doing pretty good. I mean, you're very, you're very intelligent. You're both very intelligent people. And you're very, like, you're not, you're not like, not like crazy conspiracy theorists, this is like, which is what makes it so interesting to me. Because some like the points and the things that you're talking about, do make sense. And you're not saying anything. That doesn't make any sense to me. I don't like I don't know about this like baby thing and all this other corruptions up, but you obviously did the legwork. But what I feel like is that my father latched on to what you guys were looking at and use it for his own advantage. Big and like just what you said to be like, Jack, you gotta be honest, Jack, you gotta be honest with me. You know, and so you have this suspicion that my father wasn't telling the whole truth. Like my father. So you talked about the plastic bag, right? So my father says to me, and this is in my film, he says to me, you know, I said, Why did you put a plastic bag over your head? He's like, No, thank you. Why did you put a plastic bag over her head? And he said, because I didn't, I was afraid to look at her. So he admitted to putting the plastic bag over her head. You know? So it's, it's, it's just very interesting. And I think that, like, for me, it's like, the web of deception, like with my father just runs so deep. It's now roped people like yourselves in who have legitimate concerns about things that were going on. And, you know, and and like, again, I'm not here to say, what was happening, what you guys were looking into was justified. And I have like, I have no idea. I mean, but I'm saying like talking to you guys, you're very both very coherent and very intelligent people. You're not

Pastor Ernie Sanders 53:44

what your father, what your father had to say, went along with a lot of what these other people were telling us, especially about where it came to the the auction, the human trafficking of the children. He seemed to know about that. And again, and so the other people that we talked to that admitted Yeah, that's what that's what was taking place in Mansfield.

Collier Landry 54:07

And my contention is that my father played upon this knew about this and use it to manipulate these guys and spin the story for his own benefit. That's my contention.

Pastor Ernie Sanders 54:19

Now we know that there was so much other corruption taking place there. There was one case where there was three, three teenagers, young guys that came through there. Well, they were probably close to 20. And they ended up being killed, pled out murdered by the the sheriff's department out there according to Marty hands what he investigated. Now they believe he was living in any amount of radio program several times where him and his family lived. He was worn by the by you don't you don't put anything about the sheriff's department or police without our permission. And he said if I can prove They'll print it. And with that, they set the place on fire with him and his family. And so, and then, you know, the threats that I got remember Jim, taking the tapes down to the library? Yeah. Yeah. What happened? We told people look, I don't like being threatened, i get i gets old very quickly. And I look mostly Yes, it dies. And so what happened was when they call and told me that I better just kind of stay away and back off and quit talking about what was going on in Mansfield. That's when we took tapes down to the library. And left with without cell radio, you want you want to you want to get a table in this program, of what took place. And that's when we had that other fella who admitted to driving the children and I can't remember his name, because it's been 30 years. But anyhow, he that was on there, that conversation, and we left them in there. And who was it that came in right afterwards? Gems? Was that? Was that Bob lemon?

Jim Kloos 56:06

No, I don't think so. No, no, but I'll say this, call your you know, I'm very sympathetic to what happened to you, and what you've been put through. And I have to tell you, you know, my own opinion. And I was very, I was very the way you were put on that trial. You know, most of the times, family members don't testify against family members, like the wife can testify against the husband. But when you were put on there, and you were very, you were very into the trial and everything, but it was very hard to take, you know, I'm saying, I never met you for some of every talk to you. And it was funny, I always knew that at some point in time, somebody was going to call up and want to talk. But it was funny. I always wondered how it was going to go. But what I can tell you is I saw the whole trial. And when I watched the trial, especially not knowing that the lawyers suggest lawyers were representing the judge whatever his name is, I can't remember his name. But But when I saw tribal, you know, Sherry, she wasn't my type of woman, but she was an attractive woman. But she was in the traffic attractive woman in a certain way on the trial, where, you know, when I got in front of her, if you looked at her face straight on, there was like a triangle in her face. And if you look here from the side, she was actually kind of homely bony and homely. So I was down there one time, and I've been there. Don't get me wrong. I've been in front of some very beautiful women, including some of these women that Bill President Bill Clinton was was involved with, not Monica Lewinsky. And I got on the theory and we're talking I said to her, Sherry, I said, you know, when there's a murder, there was a homicide. I said, a lot of times people can't take it, and they fade away. I said, my own opinion, it looks like you've, you've lost 10% of your beauty. And she went like this. She goes 10% 25% So we're talking. And I was like, there was like, some energy that came out at the front of her head. And believe me, I've been in front of some gorgeous My wife's a gorgeous woman. And, and I'll tell you what, I've never had my eye twitch because of something that energy coming out of a woman. And like I started twitching. And she goes like this. She goes, DM, your eye is starting to twitch. I said, Well, I said you're the one shooting the other GL my way. Now last but not least, I'll tell you one last story. So they said I'm never going from Charlotte. So I did get in front of Charlotte. And she was a very lovely woman. Don't get me wrong. And I got in front of her husband. I don't know. I think he's dead now too. But, but he was a

Collier Landry 58:50

Charlotte was very Charlotte was very love lovely. I you know, yeah. God rest her soul.

Jim Kloos 58:55

I like to call it. She's dead, right?

Collier Landry 58:58

Yes, she passed away. GBI. She passed away either last year or the year before. Right. So I think it was her husband.

Jim Kloos 59:05

Her husband was a truck driver. And I remember one time when they come home was Jack and I spent I'll tell you what, I think his name was Jack. We spent like one afternoon together was working on the truck. I just sat there and helped him and this and that and the other thing. And then when it was done, Monroe was said to me if you get for fun of Jack, there's a lot of people think he might have been a mule bringing drugs up on that truck. So we just hadn't talked. Nice Jack Welch

Collier Landry 59:33

Jack Bomberger, who is who is she would be Sherry's dad. I guess so. Yeah.

Jim Kloos 59:37

All right. So we a nice talk that we went in the house and just kind of funny I always remember this. But his chair in the living was broken, and he had a wrench that turned the chair so you can lay backwards. And we sat there and talked. We've just talked about import, you know, important things that I thought you wanted to talk to me about Jack and said we've been having a nice No, I want I want to talk about him. He goes this is if you have anything to say say it right now. He goes like this. He goes Jet A pointed a light on the ceiling. He goes, Jack could not screw that light into that socket.

Collier Landry 1:00:18

You're talking about my father. You're talking about my father. Yeah. Yeah, my father was kind of useless.

Jim Kloos 1:00:25

He couldn't screw this Les Paul in here. And he looked at me with a real serious eye. And he goes, and don't tell me ever dug up that would tell me he ever dug up that basement with that jackhammer. And so that was a discussion I had with him. And then things kind of, they didn't like I said to Sherry, I says, I don't bite mark Davis, for one second. One minute, one second. And there was a lot of talk about him. Monsignor told me that there was less talk about him was illegal steroids. But anyway, I got in front of Charlotte, one time, very lovely woman. And I said, Charlotte, I said, you know, looks like this is coming through and I'm gonna go my merry way. It's nice to meet you. So I'm sober. I said, but I said, I just wanted to get I just wanted to get one last thing into you. And I said, Can we at least talk about your involvement in this case? And she got very upset. And she she got I think she actually stood up. And she goes, Jim, I am a Christian. I'm a Christian. I, I've never been through something like this. I have nothing to do with this. Shirt. Well, why are you lying to me? I said, when the real estate agent in Erie, called to your home and asked for Mrs. Boyle. You handed the phone to Sherry, you're not into this, that woman's dead. She's dead. She's not coming back. And you're lying about who the real estate agent thinks think she is. You hand the phone to Jerry. He goes, Jim, Jim, you need to probably leave the house. Now you, Jim, you should probably leave the house now. I said, Well, don't don't try to kill me. I've been around the pike.

Collier Landry 1:02:04

So you're saying so you're saying Charlotte defended sherry or Charlene was upset that my friend but that Sherry signed my mother's name on the document for the house?

Jim Kloos 1:02:13

Well, not only that, you know, it's funny when you're involved in a murder, a murder involved? You know, like I say is some people look over the bridge and jump offense. And the fact that you didn't do that I'm grateful for that. You know, I'm saying that because you're a stronger personality. And you wouldn't have been if you hadn't gone through this. But at some point in time, you know, I said to Sherry, I said, tell me how many times you went up to Erie. She goes one time, and it was very pleasant conversation. I said, What did you do up there? Well, I, I was pregnant. And she says, I I did the paper my clock my cupboards. I papered my cupboards, and that was it. And I said, that's all you did. That's all I did. I looked at it. It was real quiet for a little while. And I said, Did you go down the basement? She goes, No. I said, you know, Sherry, I said, I consider you a friend. I said, but you're lyin to me right to my face. She was I'm not lying to you. I thought, Sherry, let me try to explain to you what happens when men are working down in the basement sweating. Women make ham sandwiches with lettuce on it. They get lemonade or beer and take it down. You didn't go down? Because you knew that woman was down in the basement. You knew that Jerry? Jim, Jim, you need to go Would you please go? So that's how it goes. Okay,

Collier Landry 1:03:43

so now. So now we get to the interesting part. So you think you think that Sherry And Mark Davis were participants in the murder of my mother?

Jim Kloos 1:04:02

Well, I'm gonna say this, say this very carefully. Your mother's dead? Nothing near you. They bound her up in theory. And there was a big question. Was it her? It was her. But anyway, it's funny, because the question is, how did she get up there? How did she get up there? And, and then there's a lot of questions are, you know, let's say for instance, Jack's role in the case was not the murderer. I said to him, did you kill her? He goes on my mother's grave. I didn't tell her. I said, Okay. I said, How'd she die? They wouldn't tell me. And so I said them. How does she get up there was Jack's portion of the case. To get her out of the house. And then the whatever you want to call it, the group kills her and takes her up there. I don't know. But I'm saying this That's when I said to Jack, but first time I met him. I said, women do not throw their credit cards at you. You're lying. That's not true. She didn't do that. So whatever happens to her credit cards, you know whether you pick them up off the floor, whether it's cylinder purse, she did not do that. So I need to be honest, let's be honest. Let's tell the truth. And that's where we stood. So did the unit say to her, Hey, you don't have to kill her. But we're gonna, you're gonna go bye, bye. And she's gonna go up to Erie? You know? I don't know. And like I say, it's funny that Forensic Files, they have that on and I was I worked at the airports for a number of years. And it was funny one night they had your dad's case on, and that was the first time I saw them dig around on the ground. You know, I'm saying that was first time I saw that. It was funny. I never left by what I said to Monsignor. I said, it's very strange to see a Rolex watch on your heart on your arm. Very strange. I feel sorry for you, my friends. I really do. And like I say, don't feel

Collier Landry 1:06:15

don't feel bad for me. I mean, look, I you know, as you said, a couple of minutes ago, uh, you know, I've, I'm here and I've learned strength from all of this. And I'm a strong person, and I'm strong at the end of the day because of my mother, because of the things that my mother instilled in me as a child. And that's where I derive my strength from I believe, you know, you know, and probably a higher power I'm sure of course higher power but yeah, is a it's just interesting that you just mentioned things because there's always I remember that Sherry would say to had said to me several times. You know, your father, I like your father. Jack had no common sense. Jack had no common sense. And I always stuck with me. I was like, Okay, well, I sort of knew my father was no, it was, you know, like when you just said Jack Bomberger said that man couldn't screw in a light bulb, like, you know, my father was probably not like a handy I wouldn't say he was a handy person would just like you read a jackhammer and dig a hole. So I don't know. It's it's interesting, because it's it. I've always felt like my father couldn't do couldn't have done this. I still believe he's, he killed her. But I don't know if he did all that himself. I'm not really convinced to that.

Jim Kloos 1:07:43

I said to your dad, I said, you know, I said, you're an Irishman. I said, You believe in leprechauns. Nobody puts a dead body in the basement of their house that they just paid $300,000 for. And I said, and I we actually joked that we had some popcorn was broken. And I said, Can I give you a little heads up, because a little heads up for you? Next time you kill somebody think their body was white paint a green, green and brown paint and hoist them up in a pine tree? Tie him up in the binary. That's better than putting them into your basement. Now. Now, was he the one that thought to put her in the basement? Or was he set up? By buying the way he did getting the carpeting doing this? According to him, he was totally set up. It was only knowing that they were gonna hang it on him or was like, on she's down in the basement. That's the end of it.

Collier Landry 1:08:36

So why so then he said and that begs the question, why wouldn't my father admit this? Why wouldn't my father come out and say this during his parole? Why would he say to me in the film, why wouldn't he say I sure as hell would I be like I was set up by these guys. I'm in prison, they should be here to eff this. You know, I've done really well with my profanity on this episode guy, by the way, guys, I told pastor Ernie I said I'm going to really watch my mouth. So I promised him so I so I would say you know, this is messed up. And you know, get me the hell out of here. Like and these people or these people need to be right next to me. That's that's where I really that's where I really look my father had no we had no qualms about being disloyal to my mother he ran around on her their entire marriage and before they were married, I found all this out. Why why is he holding out some sort of quote unquote loyalty to other people? That doesn't matter and and like why wouldn't you just throw them under the bus to I would not have a really loyal guy but I'd be like, Screw this I'm not going down alone. Even if he did it posthuman era not possibly gonna post conviction just said no, this is what happened or whatever I would have just been I mean, my father is so arrogant on the witness stand. He's such a My father is a liar and a narcissist. I mean, there's no question of that. Now. Does that make him the perfect mark? Maybe? Maybe they are like, You know what? He's a Mark

Pastor Ernie Sanders 1:10:07

Collier, let me let me tell you what I know when the last time I went to visit him, that's when he switched over to Islam. And I asked him, what's our world? Why What in the world, I can tell you this, he was looking around at the other inmates in there. And you can tell he was he was scared. He was very afraid. And the idea I got the feeling didn't say this. Not so many words, anyhow. But he, I had the feeling that they they felt they could get to a right where he was at in there, that there were people on the outside that hadn't let him know that he was the one his mouth and too many things that we'll get to him. I had that I just got that feeling. I've had that situation with a number of inmates over the years. You pick up a lot when you spend 45 years? on death row, you pick up a lot? Oh,

Collier Landry 1:11:09

sure, sure. But I don't know if it has any, I don't know if his fear was warranted because he was threatened by outside sources, it could just be you're in prison, and you're a white guy in prison, or you're a mark in prison, or you're a guy that's gone to prison for murdering his wife, you become a target of inmates. I mean, that's pretty much you know, that's I mean, I have, I have not been to prison, I have no desire to ever go to prison, and I will never go to prison, I pray to God, but I, I, I do know that what goes on in the system is is is just that, that you are, you do have to join a certain club or club or sect or religious, you know, group or whatever. Like you have to align yourself when you come to prison strategically. I mean, there's just you know, there's many people who are interviewed on podcasts and things of that nature about how the prison the incarceration system works, which is something I'm very big on seeing reformed. But I think that, you know, you do do certain things for your protection, you do align with certain groups. I remember, my father had these odd tattoos. And I asked him, I was like, what are those? And he was like, No, there's nothing or whatever there are, I think he may have even said there for protection. And he didn't mean because it has a sacred symbol on it. And a higher power is protecting I think it was like you were you belong to a certain group, and they see your tattoos and your identify, like, again, like a gang, you had to become a card for survival. But I don't know if that was survival because he was being threatened by the Mansfield elite. I think it was more of survival of you're in prison, and you need to survive and you need you're gonna be here for a long time, dude, you need to align yourself with someone,

Pastor Ernie Sanders 1:12:49

a group? No, they do help me know it, let me know very clearly that they let him know that they could they could get to him wherever he was at. And they would they would know. You know what he had to say? In other words, I told you when he told me and I got it out there. And look, it was in your father that made all those threats against us. It wasn't your father that told us to keep this data Mansfield. Not to talk about him not to talk about the case not to talk about the trafficking. It was it was coming there from from the corrupt. And the dirty cops out of Mansfield. That's where that was all coming from and not just the cops, but the the judiciary all of those involved. Sure, so But your dad told me that he knew that they could get to him wherever he's at. So how can you tell me this? How old is he now?

Collier Landry 1:13:45

He'll be 79 on Sunday.

Pastor Ernie Sanders 1:13:48

79 and he's still in prison. He's been down for how many years? That's that's been since what the 90s. Right.

Collier Landry 1:13:55

My father has been incarcerated. My father has been well, he was caught. He has technically been in custody since the morning of January 25 1990. So he's been in custody ever since then. And he's formerly been incarcerated in prison since like, June 28th 1990, something like that, if he was when he was officially convicted and sentenced. Yeah. It's all very interesting to me. Because you know, and I think that when we look at the justice system, or we look at these cases, or things that happen, there are always there, this is my sort of takeaway. I think that what you guys were looking into, obviously started before my father and continued after my father. I think my father was just sort of in the mix of all this. This was great, though. I thank you guys so much, and it's actually really cool to talk to you. I want to talk to Martin. Yeah, I want to talk to Joe I want to keep talking about this. This is very fascinating to me. It's also educational and it's uh you know and I don't dismiss it as you know conjecture or anything I just go you know these there's there's some legitimacy here I feel all right gentlemen, thank you so much I really appreciate it. I've been speaking with Pastor Ernie Sanders and Jim clues about Wow some really interesting stuff. You guys check it out. For now I'm Collier Landry, and this is Moving Past Murder. Thanks y'all.

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