- Collier Landry
Surviving Narcissism and a Murder in Mansfield with Dr. Dennis Marikis - Re-Broadcast #58
Dr. Dennis Marikis was Collier's psychologist in the days after his mother’s body was discovered. Collier was 11 years old when Dennis helped him process the trauma of his mother's murder by his father, Dr. John F. Boyle, Jr. Dennis was featured in the documentary A Murder in Mansfield. His extensive sessions with Collier, both before and after Collier confronts his father in prison, gave audiences a "fly-on-the-wall" look at a grieving son still processing this horrific event 26 years later.
• After a recent listener question, Collier briefly shares his experience in the foster care system and touches upon the challenges the system faces.
• Dennis shares when he met Collier, the day his mother's body was recovered by police. “This amazing 11-year-old was clear and defined…it’s just who you are…..fortitude built-in..” when we build resilience, we do it by facing tough stuff."
• Collier and Dennis discuss how others can learn from Collier's experiences while they process their own traumas.
• Dennis shares his advice on how people can recognize and deal with narcissists and the manipulation tactics they impose on their lives.
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YouTube link to this episode: https://youtu.be/cmHIpQotEFU
[00:00:00] I think we all should be concerned in our lives about are we caring and concerned about others enough? I think that's a fair statement. I think it's also a fair statement that you have to work a little bit more consciously about that kind of issue of showing empathy and being concerned with others.
Because I think the cost in the behavior growing up is that you didn't see it modeled except for your mother. Thank goodness your mom was just richly empathic and she was emotionally aware and all those things were who she was. But you know, you're a male and you do identify more significantly with your father simply because of that perspective, that developmental issue, and that's a huge one.
[00:01:00] Collier Landry: The testimony continued today in the most notorious criminal trial in Richland county history. Dr. John Boyle is accused of killing his wife, Noreen, and burying her body in the basement of his new home in Erie, Pennsylvania. The 12-year-old son finally took the stand. I heard a scream I heard a thud it was about this loud.
[00:01:17] We have a jury find the defendant guilty [00:01:20] when I was 12 years old, my testimony sent my father to prison for murdering my mother. This podcast serves as a type of therapy and reconciliation for myself, and it is my hope that it helps anyone who is experienced deception, betrayal, and dark trauma. I'm Collier Landry and this is moving past murder, [00:01:40] Hey Movers what's going on?
[00:01:43] Welcome back to another episode of moving past murder. Uh, today I have a really cool episode for you guys, a really, really cool interview with somebody who's been, who's had a major impact on my life, but first I want to say again, thank you all so much for tuning in every [00:02:00] week to my IG lives, which are on every Tuesday, 11:00 AM Pacific 2:00 PM Eastern time.
[00:02:06] I'm really enjoying getting to have this little banter with you guys and getting to know you. So thank you very much. That is on my Instagram channel, which is @collierlandry, which should be like right here for those of you watching on YouTube. And I wanted to thank you guys for coming out [00:02:20] for that and supporting also, uh, now the Patrion page is live.
[00:02:24] Yes, it is live. There's all kinds of really cool bonus stuff. My film there's my Dr. Phil episode. There's a probably gonna get in trouble for this I'm sure, but there's a lot of really cool exclusive content for you guys to check out on there. Some behind the scenes stuff from his behind the scenes stuff from me, making the.[00:02:40]
[00:02:40] Um, so slowly I'm rolling all that content out. I really look forward to you guys, uh, joining and it helps to support this podcast. And so I really appreciate that. Also, if you are watching on YouTube, please remember to click like and subscribe because it helps with the algorithms. All right. Enough of the sales pitch listeners shout out out of the week, goes to Amanda Dawes, [00:03:00] 72 on Instagram.
[00:03:01] She reached out and had sent me this really cool message. And I'm going to use the glasses here to read this to you guys. She says foundation of lies turned on the TV tonight on forensic files. I followed your story for years, mate. Just wanted to say what a brave boy you were. My son is 11 now, and I am a single parent and [00:03:20] I would be so proud of him.
[00:03:22] If anything happened to me. And he did what you did, your mum would be looking down on you now thinking what an amazing son I have and be, and be so proud on what you keep on, what you achieved and keeping her beautiful soul alive. Just amazing. And [00:03:40] don't forget, I will buy you efficient trips when you're in the UK or a kebab.
[00:03:44] Well, thank you, Amanda, for setting that, uh, I know you've been a big supporter of the program and, uh, being on the IgE lives every week and giving me shout outs. It's very cool. Um, and you know, this week, we're going to kind of talk about how, what happened when my [00:04:00] mother's body was found and when, uh, the, after the murder had taken place and everyone knew, uh, that she was found today's episode is really cool.
[00:04:09] And it's something that a lot of you have really reached out and wanted to hear, hear from this particular guest. So my guest today is Dr. Dennis . Dennis was the [00:04:20] psychologist that was interviewed that I'm sorry that I worked with in the film of murder and Mansfield, and a lot of you that have seen the film have gleaned a lot of insight from his.
[00:04:33] Take on trauma and how it affect me at, at that time as a child, how it affects me [00:04:40] as an adult and, you know, going into seeing my father. And then obviously after the scene with my father, coming back to him and talking to him and being sort of a fly on the wall on those therapy sessions seems to have really, really resonated with many of you and many people around the world that have seen the documentary.
[00:04:58] So I'm very excited to him [00:05:00] have him as a guest today. Um, he was also sort of the first responder that was on the scene when my mother was found murdered, uh, underneath my father's house in Erie, Pennsylvania. So he was at the school and he was the first person to really talk to me about this. So he's going to share his insight on that.
[00:05:18] So [00:05:20] here we go. I really hope you guys enjoy this episode. And my guest is Dr. Dennis Morris, and I'm pleased to welcome him to this.
[00:05:29] So, Hey Dennis, thank you so much for joining us. I, uh, I appreciate your time.
[00:05:33] Dr. Dennis Marikis: Well, it's quite an honor to be with you again, as I really look forward to seeing you again, Collier and it's [00:05:40] a wonderful to see you. Yeah.
[00:05:41] Collier Landry: Oh, likewise, likewise. And you know, I, when I reached out to you on the podcast, I told you that you, uh, that you have quite a fan base that has emerged, um, with the work that we, you know, we showed on camera and, you know, one of the things that we were just, you know, discussing is [00:06:00] sort of in, in the moment when you and I were there talking about my issues and what was going on is that we really kept the authenticity high because it was just a natural meeting.
[00:06:10] I mean, I had not seen you since I was 11 years old, I think for our listeners and F, and even for me, [00:06:20] What ha. So if you could take us back to that day, which was January 25th, 1990, when you came to
[00:06:27] Dr. Dennis Marikis: discovery school, I was doing some work at discovery school, working with some of the kids as they were struggling.
[00:06:33] And then this event occurred and everything was so centered on the challenges that created. And they looked [00:06:40] at you, I think in some respects, and they were concerned about its impact. And whether you were, should we talk to you or not? And there were some concerns about how, how fragile they were. I don't think they knew you because that's not you, you weren't fragile.
[00:06:53] It was upsetting, horrifically upsetting. There's no question about that. But the issue [00:07:00] was what I saw in that 11 year old is that is a person that was clear, directed, focused, and a remarkably resilient because in that short time, you know, clearly the biggest loss was your mother, but you did lose your father.
[00:07:14] You really did lose your father. You lost your dog. You lost your sister, you [00:07:20] lost her home and this amazing 11 year old with all that, as the backdrop, knowing that he was going to testify in court at some point. Was clear and defined and very resilient. I think that that may be a gift that Marine gave you maybe, but [00:07:40] clearly it's just who you are.
[00:07:42] And as you've approached other challenges, you realize there's this fortitude in you that I think it's dispositional. I think it's just kind of built in you. I know the situations, certainly, you know, when we build resilience, we build resilience by facing tough. But there's some people. And [00:08:00] I think you're clearly one of those that don't really have difficulties looking at tough stuff and saying, I got to do something about this.
[00:08:07] Even your podcast reflects that, helping others. And I think that's really key. So back then, um, you were, uh, you were, uh, even you had a great sense of humor. You were a guy that, that [00:08:20] typically even in the midst of all, this could talk like an adult with, with no problematic pattern, you spoke like an adult, I'm sure.
[00:08:29] You know, the time you spent with your mom and, and the environment made that pretty clearly easier for you, you were grieving, but you're also, there was a part of you that said, you know, [00:08:40] I'm going to move forward. I felt you felt so directed at what you were doing. And I think that was really a strength of yours and, you know, everyone else was just stunned by all the events, but it was more than that for you, you, you focused on.
[00:08:55] I want to protect. I want to help as best I can at that time. We didn't know what happened [00:09:00] to your mom. Uh, I want to do the most I can do, you know, so that mom feels that, that you are in her corner and now we're trying to help her. And I think that's what you did.
[00:09:13] Collier Landry: Wow. That's really powerful. Well, first of all, that's amazing to hear that I [00:09:20] had an impact at that time on you and that there were these key indicators. I mean, so that I was going to be okay. I guess one of the crazy things about doing the podcast is, you know, as, as you know, I was like abandoned by my entire [00:09:40] family, my mother's side and my father's side and having lost my mother and my home and my dog and my, you know, my whole way of life.
[00:09:47] Right. I. I've reconnected with somebody whose relatives, Tik TOK. Yeah, because they saw the New York post article that came out, you know, a month ago, not even a [00:10:00] month ago that makes, you know, they started listening to podcasts or they followed me on Tik TOK and they just started reaching out. And it was interesting because they weren't immediate relatives.
[00:10:09] They were, you know, one of them was married to my father's cousin, my father's first cousin, but knew my mother. And there's two wonderful things about it. And my mother's side of the family [00:10:20] that are like doing genealogies have reached out to me. It's really amazing. One of the things that is the general sentiment from everyone is first of all, they can't understand why nobody stepped up in the family and they were distant relatives.
[00:10:33] So they weren't in that. They were like, why didn't you immediately? Why didn't your mom's sister take you? Why don't you follow your brother, take you? Why didn't these people step up [00:10:40] and you know, what was going on? On the flip side, they have these wonderful remembrances of my mother. And they'll say things like, God, I watched the podcast and I watched you on camera.
[00:10:53] It's like seeing your mother. It's like, uh, it's, it's a ma you're so much like your mother, you are. And of course they have all these [00:11:00] wonderful stories about her, uh, of just that, you know, like when I made the film, I didn't realize that my mother had put my father through medical school, you know, and finding out all these things was really crazy because I didn't grow up knowing that.
[00:11:15] Um, so that was [00:11:20] really cool. And the impact that my mother had on these people was probably the most interesting, because what they said is they said, we didn't know what happened to you. And we always wondered, but we knew because you were Naureen son, you were going to figure it out.
[00:11:38] Dr. Dennis Marikis: Is that helpful? [00:11:40]
[00:11:41] Collier Landry: Hmm, that's powerful.
[00:11:41] That's the impact that my mother had or relatives that are, you know, distant relatives, but they all said, you know, wherever this kid is, he's, he's going to be okay because that's Norine son. That's [00:12:00] so heartwarming to hear it is such a tribute to my mother. Um, which is just it, which just makes me smile.
[00:12:12] Yeah. On the
[00:12:13] Dr. Dennis Marikis: side,
[00:12:15] Collier Landry: there are the same relatives that obviously had experiences with my father [00:12:20] and. I guess one of the things that I, you know, I did this episode about my birthday. I turned 44 a couple of days ago, and that was the age my mother was killed. Thank you so much. The real birthday is actually happening tomorrow, which is, [00:12:40] which will be, uh, March 5th, because that's when my little dog Blondie turned 17.
[00:12:46] Oh my
[00:12:46] Dr. Dennis Marikis: goodness. Yes.
[00:12:48] Collier Landry: So that is the one we're celebrating in my
[00:12:50] Dr. Dennis Marikis: mind. Yeah. Gotcha. Gotcha. But are you somewhat conscious about aging?
[00:12:55] Collier Landry: Do you, do you think? Well, I think that what I was, what I was conscious about [00:13:00] is the fact that this is what my mother turned 44. So that was a milestone for me murdered at 44.
[00:13:07] And then the next milestone will be like my father when he was 46, getting arrested and murdering my mother and all that. So that happens. So I, one of the things I want to ask you. [00:13:20] Is it, you know, with the flip side with my father, there's the bad things, right? There's all these wonderful things and traits about my mother, but then my father has traits and I obviously half of his blood courses, my veins.
[00:13:35] And I think that a lot of people when they reach out to me on the podcast, [00:13:40] um, and after seeing the film and our work in the film and seeing my father, right, they wonder, is this something that is hereditary is his sociopathy. And I know you like to, you don't want to, you, you stray away from that term because it's not recognized, but, um, are [00:14:00] traits that my father exhibits the narcissism, the, and I don't know if he's a covert narcissist or he's an overt narcissist or a little bit of both, but the, the, these traits are these something that people who have relatives or that have grown up with this.
[00:14:19] Have a danger [00:14:20] of repeating. What are your thoughts on that? Is that something that should be worried? Uh, I
[00:14:25] Dr. Dennis Marikis: mean, I think we all should be concerned in our lives about, are we caring and concerned about others enough? I think that's a fair statement. I think it's also a fair statement that you have to work a little bit more consciously about that kind of issue of [00:14:40] showing empathy and being concerned with others.
[00:14:42] Because I think the cost in the behavior growing up is that you didn't see it modeled except for your mother. Thank goodness. Your mom was just richly, empathic, and she was emotionally aware and all those things were who she was. You know, you're a male and you do [00:15:00] identify more significantly with your father simply because of that perspective, that developmental issue.
[00:15:06] And that's a huge one. So I do think when you decide how to be a man, your primary person growing up really was your father. You understood, caring and concerned about others from your mother. [00:15:20] That in itself probably facilitates you not having those challenges. If your mom was absent and distant, the chances are you identifying more with your father would have been more significant.
[00:15:32] So there's a little bit of research that supports that there are some of those, uh, pre-existing sort of [00:15:40] characteristics that may come from narcissism with a narcissistic parent. But most of it is the environment. And the situations you dealt with growing up. And so you could always look at your father's behavior and say, there's something wrong with it because you had your mother, cause you knew what it was like to feel [00:16:00] connected and emotionally aware.
[00:16:02] I think though, we always have to be aware of our vulnerability and the vulnerability probably you do have is that identification with how to be a man. I mean, you've clearly you're in a different place now at age 44 than you were at age 18 20, 21, 25. But clearly some of it [00:16:20] is there. And I think some of your struggles you'd have to say, yeah, it looks a little like that.
[00:16:25] Nothing like what your father did, but, or how he acted. I mean, it was the most remarkable thing. Of course it was the awful things he had done with your mom, the awful stuff, not just leading up to her death, but well before that, [00:16:40] but he also did terrible things to you. He also was really, really. I mean, I shared his aggression and that more, I don't know if they was more overt with his aggression, although it's not unusual for narcissist to present as if they have no trouble.
[00:16:55] And then in the world and seen as a very benevolent caring person, but at [00:17:00] home really wreck havoc, that's not unusual. He did sort of a bit of both, um, uh, meaning that had some characteristics I would say, wanting to present well. Uh, but the second aspect of it was that he also wasn't able to sustain that and in relationships just was never there.[00:17:20]
[00:17:20] So I do think in a long-winded answer, I do think that, yeah, I think we have to be attentive to that, but I also think you have good models to help you see perspective differently, which is great. I guess I could ask you that question. Do you fear sometimes the, some of those characteristics that you saw in your dad and you,[00:17:40]
[00:17:41] Collier Landry: I would say that. Growing up after the murder and going, like, when I made the transition from going to private school to public school, I was bullied a lot. It didn't make a big deal out of it. Um, but I was bullied a lot [00:18:00] and I was not like a small like kid, you know, I was a sizable, you know, I mean I could kick someone's ass.
[00:18:09] Yeah. Yeah. I would get angry, but I would let it just, I wouldn't fight back. I wouldn't, you know, I wouldn't engage because [00:18:20] there was a part of me that was very concerned that a switch could be flipped. Right. Because I grew up seeing my father, having his switch flipped, like that would go into fits of rage and anger over.
[00:18:39] [00:18:40] Nothing. And I remember a specific time I was wearing a hat that the ski instructor had given me and said, Penn state. Now my father graduated from Wharton university of Pennsylvania Quakers, and I said, Penn state. And he goes, you shouldn't, you can't say that. Don't say that we hate Penn state. And I was like, oh, Penn state.
[00:18:56] I was nine years old. What [00:19:00] kids do acting like a little obnoxious kid. That's right. Surprise, surprise. Um, and it seems to, uh, translate well into adulthood. Um, and we have this, you know, so I'm making this and then he just gets enraged and he's screaming at me. And my mother is pleading for my [00:19:20] life and he breaks the windows and the door.
[00:19:22] And he's screaming at her, pointing at her, smacking her like. Anger and just, it was so terrifying over me and you for his forgiveness. I'm going to kill this kid. If I pay you we'll bet again, she's pleading with him. It was just, it was one of the most dramatic things I'd ever seen from [00:19:40] her father and she's crying and she's pleading Jack don't hurt him, Jacqueline we'll do this.
[00:19:45] Um, and it's like, you know, and I testified at that trial. So right. Getting back to what I was saying, I would always question if I, if that's switched flipped, could that light be turned [00:20:00] off quickly, easily? Could I come out and just be aggressive? All of my pent up aggression, if you will, of my, you know, first of all, I'm a teenager.
[00:20:12] So I'm already having an angsty time in general should get what happened to me. I'm a teenager. Teenage boys are probably the best examples of [00:20:20] sociopaths
[00:20:20] Dr. Dennis Marikis: in the world. Oh sure. South interested. So focused. That'd be there's there. There's for sure. It goes with it. Yeah. It comes
[00:20:27] Collier Landry: with the territory. So I already have this angsty teenager insight coupled with the fact that my whole life had been turned upside down a few years earlier and all of this other stuff.
[00:20:36] And then what had happened to me on top of it and who my father was, there was a lot of [00:20:40] elements at play, so I never really get it. So back to your question was, did I worry about that? Yes. I worried about that a lot and I. Have gotten over that fear in adulthood. Um, I know that I'm not that type of person.
[00:20:54] I don't have those proclivities to anger and irrational [00:21:00] behavior that my father had. And just at the flip of the switch, but I do want to go back to something that you were saying earlier, which is my, you know, uh, the narcissism and
[00:21:15] my, the way my father behaved. There were so many people. And if [00:21:20] you look at like the trial and they raised a fund for him, they raised all this money. I used to go with my father on his rounds, uh, as a medical doctor. And I, um, I definitely, uh, sorry, now the phone just beeped, which is insane. Um, the, uh, [00:21:40] I would go on my father's medical rounds with him and I saw what.
[00:21:44] A great doctor. He was and how he interacted with patients. And so when my father was charged with murdering his wife, um, a lot of people didn't know he was married. First of all, second of all, they, they had this sort of state of disbelief, like how this is [00:22:00] Dr. Boyle. He's this great doctor he's helped me with my cancer.
[00:22:02] He's helped me with this. He treats me for disability from the GM plant. He does. And he's a great doctor. This man is incapable of this. Right. Do you feel because of his extension of being a doctor that, you know, I think [00:22:20] Jim Mayer, the prosecutor said in his closing argument, he was a killer by debt, a healer by day killer by night.
[00:22:26] Right? Right. So do you feel that in the position of my father was. Selectively, almost like the selective empathy where he would go to the patients and, and, and the families. And I would go to my father with [00:22:40] like, we go to Amish country and I learned a lot about, and of course me being a little entertainer, I was like, tap dancing and playing this little harmonica and singing and cleaning patients
[00:22:48] Dr. Dennis Marikis: over the little nature.
[00:22:51] Collier Landry: Um, but I remember specifically there was a place not too far from you. I don't know if it still exists. It was called the rain tree where they had children with [00:23:00] disabilities, uh, extreme disabilities that required, you know, um, what is the word of Haley attic or paleo? What is a paleo Patrick or, you know what I mean?
[00:23:11] Dr. Dennis Marikis: care, palliative care, palliative
[00:23:13] Collier Landry: care. Is that what I'm, is that what I'm
[00:23:16] Dr. Dennis Marikis: saying? And people that are typically, uh, [00:23:20] they're not in hospice, but the care is really based on level of function and they don't really do a lot more remarkably to change the person they'd facilitate making them more.
[00:23:32] Collier Landry: Um, so I remember, yeah. So I remember specifically going to the Raintree of my father and a [00:23:40] kid, you know, who had like, you know, he was developmentally like mentally disabled and was drooling and my father was cleaning up the drool. And I remember just, I was crying. I was trying not to cry, but I was, I felt so bad for this child.
[00:23:56] I didn't realize at the time I think that [00:24:00] that was his reality. And I think that we all go through things and, you know, people say, oh, how did you handle your situation? What was my reality? I just handle it. So he probably didn't know another reality. I think he was born that way. Um, but I remember my father would say to me, you know, you're really blessed.
[00:24:17] To have an able body and to be [00:24:20] a kid that can go outside and play and all this stuff, and just be grateful for that. And my mother would do the same thing. My mother was very big into the whole gratitude thing and, and really understanding, you know, I think it's a great way to raise a child by the way, one of my favorite things, you know, it, wasn't probably my favorite as a kid, but as I've entered adulthood is that my mother every year would [00:24:40] make me go before Santa Claus came.
[00:24:42] And yes, I believed in Santa Claus. I literally found out about Santa Claus when I was going through the house. And I found my letters to Santa Claus and I asked my foster mother, why did mommy have, why did my mother have this. These letters from Santa, [00:25:00] why does she keep them? And then she said, well, there's no Santa Claus.
[00:25:02] Just like a matter of fact, like there's no Santa Claus color here. Wait, you didn't know anybody? I was like, yeah. I was like, great. Okay. So I've lost my mom and lost my father. I lost my dog, lost my whole way of living. And now there's no fucking Santa Claus. No,
[00:25:13] Dr. Dennis Marikis: thanks. Thanks.
[00:25:18] Collier Landry: Um, [00:25:20] I re so I don't know where I was going with this, but I think about my father with his care that he would provide patients and showing that that genuine empathy in that moment is that is the way that he is. Is that because it's self. [00:25:40]
[00:25:40] Dr. Dennis Marikis: Well, I think there's no doubt about that. That's it? I, I, it's not unusual.
[00:25:45] I'll say this broadly without, ah, I'll say it with a little bit of care, but concern a lot of physicians, a lot of people in those healing roles do take on some of those narcissistic characteristics in part, because they have some godlike complexes because they can [00:26:00] heal somebody. So we may say the healer has empathy, but the healer really is a problem solver.
[00:26:05] He's a technician to resolve the issue. And I'm now that's sort of a, a limited way of looking at their concern for other people, but it's not unusual for somebody that has narcissistic characteristics to do that because where does appraise praise go? [00:26:20] Oh, doctor, you helped me out so much. The praise goes back to you.
[00:26:24] It's always an exchange there. It's always back to me. So when I help somebody I'm getting affirmation and also probably earning a fairly substantial living. There's lots of factors that go with that profession, but you can sort of box it into a profession where you show [00:26:40] empathy to the degree that you care for somebody else, but not really deeply felt.
[00:26:45] In fact, it's often talked to positions to not show that care because it's difficult. Even in my profession, when I work at supervising counselors, it's important to set boundaries. So you really can't get so invested that you take with you [00:27:00] the challenges of your experience. So you have to do, it's called objectifying.
[00:27:04] You have to sort of see the person care about them, but create some distance because of the pain that people are suffering, including yours Collier like that. You can't, you can't wear with you every day. And then do that work with 20 other people and maintain that [00:27:20] physician has to do the same. So, yes, there's probably some that he showed some care and concern for no doubt about it, but it was in the context of the role of being a physician.
[00:27:31] And I think that's how I often see that kind of, like I said, it's sort of compartmentalize. I can be that person in that situation. The answer always is when I work [00:27:40] with people with narcissistic characteristics is in those situations that you show care and concern for other people and you do it because you're, whatever your profession might be or whatever your role is, you can broaden that in your work is to broaden that.
[00:27:54] Even when you feel like you want to yell and scream to begin to start the process of realizing that the [00:28:00] court of narcissism is insecurity. It's a hard one to see because they seem so remarkably convict. But the core of it is insecure. If we're to sort of take a tagline for narcissism, is it, I have to what order to feel good about myself.
[00:28:15] I have to prove that I'm better than you always, always. So physician is better [00:28:20] because he's the caregiver he's providing the service you see, and it's great. And I'm not saying he doesn't, he didn't show care and concern for his patients. I'm sure he did, but you know, and, and, and I don't know that I can even diagnose him with our system.
[00:28:34] I didn't really ever work with your dad, but I do understand the characteristics are there based on what you [00:28:40] experienced. So yeah. It can be both.
[00:28:45] Collier Landry: Yeah. Um, something that was interesting that a lot of people ask about. Yeah. Um,
[00:28:57] And you and I discussed this and I don't know if it made it [00:29:00] into the film, but you and I discussed it. We discussed it afterwards many times, but, and you know, as I, uh, as you know, I did a Ted talk about this saying, what if the answer you seek is not the answer you need. And one of the most poignant things that you said to me after the meeting with my father in prison, [00:29:20] and this will always stick with me.
[00:29:21] And I tell people this, because I think that people see my father stumbling through making up lies, trying to figure out like, weren't you angry? Weren't you, this don't you feel left unsatisfied because he didn't admit what he did and this, that, and the other. [00:29:40] But one of the things that you said to me very specifically is that you feel by my father, not admitting his guilt or a justification of why he committed the.
[00:29:56] A proper one, um, that, [00:30:00] that will ultimately serves me better because I ended up with less questions and I have a better resolution. Can you talk about that a little bit, because that's a really hard pill for a lot of people to swallow. Yes, it is. Because
[00:30:12] Dr. Dennis Marikis: I think everyone's perspective is when we have this sort of moment where we have, uh, a come to Jesus perspective or facing [00:30:20] that person in your life, whatever it's apparent, et cetera, you hope for the outcome to be, that will be nice with each other, for the rest of our days.
[00:30:28] We'll reconcile, we'll make it better. And in this situation, my fear for you and his fear for a lot of people that deal with people with these characteristics is that you're [00:30:40] inclined to be drawn to that. His affirmations were powerful to you more than is, is all his negative things he said, because he kinda counted on that because you knew that's kind of his response to you was so part of it by doing that allows you to see really his true nature [00:31:00] towards you.
[00:31:01] And more importantly, it helped you realize that this was your journey. It really helps, you know, the word that I would use also is forgiveness. And I know that's a tough word because people translate that in a lot of weird ways, but the big issue. Yeah. It is more the process of letting go. He [00:31:20] helped you to let go a whole lot more.
[00:31:22] So by being consistent and congruent with his perspective throughout this process, had he done the opposite and iTero, you know, that sometimes even in the journey with those ladder, it was, they were nice kind letters at times. There were some things that reflected a [00:31:40] sense of connection to you. And I think that kind of brings you closer to him.
[00:31:46] Collier Landry: My dad. Yeah. Stockholm syndrome, right? Yeah. Right, right now they brought me some food. They gave me a hot shower. I've been in a concrete box. 30 days. That's why I haven't [00:32:00] eaten anything. Oh, this nice person, you know, it's the good cop back. It's it's, it's crazy. And it's, um, it's, it's really, really difficult, but yeah.
[00:32:13] Um, I feel very, uh, obviously you're being very open and honest and as I'm I definitely, my [00:32:20] father would draw me in by these little things of praise. Right. It's a way of these little nuggets. Like, I'm so proud of you, son. I'm so proud of this. I'm so proud of the man you become you're the miss. And then at the end of the day, you have to then take that with a grain of salt.
[00:32:34] Like, why is he saying that? Oh, because he's up for parole. Oh, because he wants to rescind me to [00:32:40] rescind my testimony. Oh. I mean, as you know, the whole, the whole thing with the film was, you know, when I, when my father enters the room, Big final scene, right? A smile on his face. He's very, very excited and he's like, oh, I'm happy to be here.
[00:32:54] And he's like, Hey Bob, how you doing? And as soon as I say to him, [00:33:00] one of the things I've been interested in ever since you murdered my. His whole, yeah, just demeanor changes. Right? Because my father was under the impression and not because I gave him this impression. Um, I may have let him run with it, but I most certainly didn't [00:33:20] say, this is why I'm doing this dad.
[00:33:22] He felt that I was making a film to help him get out of prison. So he was very excited to share his side of the story and how wonderful he's been doing in prison with all of his accolades and, and God, his degree in theology or his master's in theology and all of these things. And he's [00:33:40] doing this work with grief recovery for the other inmates, which by the way, I mean, I know that he is making an impact there.
[00:33:46] And for that, I am grateful. I mean, I don't think it impacts him at all, but it does. I did meet several inmates that felt that the work that he had done with them, it really helped them come to terms with their own crimes and [00:34:00] their own. You know, uh, come to terms with their, their, their impact on other victims.
[00:34:07] Um, which is, which is something that I feel like is commendable in a lot of ways because, uh, you know, at least you're doing something good. At least it is impacting some people. And I heard that firsthand. So give credit where credit is due. That [00:34:20] is a fantastic thing. It's also absolutely the prison that he's in Marion correctional institution.
[00:34:25] Um, they sort of push those types of things. They, they are not push, but they have an environment that allows those types of things to occur, which is also despite my father's inability to be. Formed, as [00:34:40] we say, I still feel really good about the work that has done there at that facility, because they do allow space for that, which I feel is massive and anyone who is trying to change their life after committing such a violent, horrible crime.
[00:34:54] Right. Right. So for that, I'm very grateful to them. What I want to, [00:35:00] you know, what a lot of these people have asked and a lot of these questions come from readers or psychologists that have seen the film would go this guy's amazing again. Oh, amazing. You're like a little celebrity in their world. They're like, this is the bus only.
[00:35:15] I said, this is the best child psychologist I've ever seen in my life. Like, oh, [00:35:20] is he still practicing? What is he doing? Amazing. And so thank you for that and everything that you contributed to the film and to my, my personal growth. Um, but what they wanted. A lot of the question that I get is [00:35:40] given the dynamic with my father.
[00:35:42] Is it possible for an individual who is going through dealing with someone who is a narcissist sociopath, dealing with these qualities in a person, in another person, as you know, we just came through the pandemic. People are really realizing who they're cooped up with these
[00:35:56] Dr. Dennis Marikis: days.
[00:35:58] Collier Landry: Is it possible to [00:36:00] even to have some sort of relationship or is it just all bets are off?
[00:36:03] This is never going to change. Can you speak to that a little bit? Because that's a
[00:36:07] Dr. Dennis Marikis: big burden. That's a really big one. And I want to get back to the notion of what your father is doing. And again, we're not diagnosing him. That's clearly the case. But what we find is that when the environment is [00:36:20] controlled and you don't have the capacity to have personal relationships as easily to have a sense of life outside of that role, they typically do.
[00:36:34] I mean, they do. So I hate to say it, but as, as, as is common prison for people have [00:36:40] those skills, like your father had his, a position, uh, really do better in those apartments. And so that can manifest more effectively, but it doesn't mean that that, that won't flip when, if he were to be released, but clearly that's what happens.
[00:36:53] My role is a healer. And so, and that's probably all my role. I mean, I don't have relationships in the [00:37:00] same way. I don't have a family in the same way. I don't have those sites. So sometimes people with that characteristic pattern can do well in those controlled environments to reflect that they can then use that controlled environment and now expand it to world like he had prior to going to prison is another issue.
[00:37:19] It's just [00:37:20] another issue and the dynamic, uh, it just simply doesn't carry as well. So I do think that some of what we're S we're looking at here, Yeah. You had a question with that beyond that. And I got stuck on that notion. What was your other one? I
[00:37:33] Collier Landry: think that was great. I think that was great. And that does serve the role.
[00:37:39] I [00:37:40] think that people were just curious to, how can you, how do you, when you're stuck with someone like that in your life, how do you do you just have to make the conscious conscientious decision of just saying I'm just shutting this off in my brain. I'm going well much. Like I have, like I say, in the film, you know, one of the things that was [00:38:00] really cool is a New York times reporter had seen the film and he said, Hey, here's the thing.
[00:38:05] And I didn't even, I wasn't even prepared for him to say this, but it was, and I was like, I did, he said to me, he goes, the thing that stuck out the most to me, to me in the film is after you have this whole scene with your father, you get up, you hug him and you say, I love you pop. [00:38:20] Yeah. He's like, I want you to, to sort of he's like that to me was the moment that spoke the most about your character
[00:38:27] Dr. Dennis Marikis: as a person.
[00:38:28] It is
[00:38:29] Collier Landry: who you are. And I was like, well, thank you. I was like, I didn't really look at it that way. I just, that's just me. You know, that's just how I am and I'm not going to go with hate and I do want to get into the subject of forgiveness [00:38:40] because this is very key. Yeah. Um, and I think it's a nice segue is I say that to him because that's my natural response, but I've made the decision after hearing everything.
[00:38:55] And I say, you know, I, I believe that you believe that. And there's my answer. [00:39:00] How, let me go back a little bit. When my father was convicted and sentenced by, um, uh, judge Henson, um, James Henson served as the criminal judge on case. He called me into his chambers [00:39:20] after the sentencing and everything. And I was sitting there and he, he got into sort of this diatribe about how, and I, and I loved Jim Henson.
[00:39:30] I thought he was, he did a great job and, and I think he's a great person. And he said to me, he goes, you can't [00:39:40] forgive, unless you can forget. So then you can never forgive it. He gave me this whole speech about forgiveness. And I just remember at the time thinking to myself, well, that's bullshit. And, and it has to be bullshit because I am never going to forget the fact that my father murdered my mother.
[00:39:59] I will never [00:40:00] forget that.
[00:40:00] Dr. Dennis Marikis: No, no, never
[00:40:02] Collier Landry: for a split. Second of probably even if I had Alzheimer's I wouldn't forget that it such a monumental thing in your life. Right. So. When he said that, I was just like, that's just doesn't work for me. And I'm [00:40:20] going to have to figure out a way, because I can't forget this and forgiveness cannot be tied to this.
[00:40:27] No, we can't.
[00:40:28] Dr. Dennis Marikis: No, that's right. I think it's the other way around. Yeah. And
[00:40:32] Collier Landry: I think, you know, and, and even some people, even before, when I made the film, they were, they were trying to understand, you know, how [00:40:40] can you forgive your father? It's just so heinous. Like, how can you, how do you forget that? Like, it's just, how can you forgive somebody that does that?
[00:40:46] And I, and I'm like,
[00:40:51] I I'll make guys you're, you're thinking about this, the wrong way. You're thinking that by me forgiving him, I am somehow excusing him for what he read. [00:41:00]
[00:41:00] Dr. Dennis Marikis: Right. Which is
[00:41:00] Collier Landry: not the case. No, but, but by forgiving him, I take away all the power that, that has over.
[00:41:11] Dr. Dennis Marikis: You got taking all of that back
[00:41:12] Collier Landry: and owning it and saying, I have a choice right here right now.
[00:41:17] I can hate this man to sit, you know, and it's, [00:41:20] and it's, you know, as you know, I'm sober, I quit drinking a couple of years ago. And one of the things that a lot of people say in the poison or say, say in the program is they'll say, you know, or this is maybe where I heard it in the room somehow is, you know, it's like drinking, poison, expecting the other person to die.
[00:41:36] Right. And I know that these, these cliche sayings, but it's very true in this. [00:41:40] It's really true. My father, if I, and I have, well, I mean, my mother's side of the family, my immediate cousins who were molested and, you know, one of them sadly took her own life a few years ago. And I, and I, I understand that she had problems, but I'm sure that what happened to her as a child did not have.
[00:41:58] What's known.
[00:41:59] Dr. Dennis Marikis: [00:42:00] And didn't you say that your father was accused of that behavior? Yeah,
[00:42:04] Collier Landry: my father was, my father was going to be arrested. We found out, but the girls couldn't go through with testifying traumatic. Yeah, it is traumatic and I, and my heart breaks for them. And, and in no way is, you know, I mean, [00:42:20] obviously if he was arrested, he wanted to kill my mother, but in no way, is that their cross to bear, like, you know, it's, it's it's they were reacting how they reacted.
[00:42:30] My father was solely to blame for all of this. Um, and all of this
[00:42:35] Dr. Dennis Marikis: tragedy. I'm sorry, go ahead. Oh, no, go ahead. Go ahead. No, I'm saying the tragedy, but [00:42:40] all is, is who suffers, right? The victim suffers the most in those situations of trauma, you know, that more than anybody, um, and th and the tragic perspective is they carry that burden of what it means to go through a trauma of abuse.
[00:42:55] And that is the, that is I see that far, far too [00:43:00] often in my practice, that, that the victimization continues to occur. Uh, and it's hard in that situation to address it differently. But like I said, it's no easier for you Collier and you have done a remarkable job of finding that space. Now, I want to come back to what you said when you, when they were talking about you hugging your father and [00:43:20] forgiveness.
[00:43:20] Cause I do think it was the gesture of forgiveness, but it is the suggestion of saying goodbye. You said goodbye to him. You said goodbye to him. And it brings sadness in my heart to see that that you'd have to say goodbye to your father and it wouldn't be on his death bed. It wouldn't be when he dies.
[00:43:38] It's like, you had to say goodbye to him [00:43:40] because of what he did. And in my heart, that's where forgiveness really is. Like you said, is exactly right. Forgiveness maintain is maintained. The process of not forgiving is maintained within the individual, not the situation anymore. So I hold onto. And so judge Johnson, who I love deeply, uh, I think he flipped it.
[00:43:59] I think it's the other [00:44:00] way around. You'll never forget, but you can forget. That's true. I believe that if forgiveness is defined by letting go and not reconciliation or making things, all right, because that's not the core of forgiveness. Sometimes people reconcile those forgiven relationships, but in this situation, it would, I [00:44:20] feared for you if.
[00:44:21] Because I know the influence and the challenge and the concerns that he would create for you would be continued. And I think your goal was very clear that that's why the movie was so powerful because it helped you come to the journey of saying, I'm letting you go. I'm never going to forget what you did.[00:44:40]
[00:44:40] I'm letting you go. I'm letting you go. The hole that you had over me to want to be a father, to me, to have that father son relationship. That's what you let go of as much as a concept than the individual. Do you know what I mean? I mean, it's more the sense I've I desperately want a loving father. So you would make.
[00:44:59] You would show [00:45:00] how he could be loving when he wasn't. No, I'm not saying it wasn't a times, but you would do that. And so part of the work in this situation is saying, I'm letting go of that hole that he had over me to be drawn, to, to draw towards that. Like you said, like the Stockholm syndrome to have something at an [00:45:20] emotional level to eat and drink, to feel that sense of presence, that appetite for him.
[00:45:24] Yeah. And I thought that was clearly the most, well, I'm glad you did that because you took charge, you said, I'm letting you go. And, and, and I thought that was exactly what that was representing. And I thought that's really a beautiful way to do it. You could [00:45:40] say, well, screw you, buddy. I don't want any more to do with you.
[00:45:42] You know, you're just a terrible man, but you didn't, you said, dad, I forgive me. I let go of you. And I just think that's really the most powerful piece. And I think that's a practice that many of us need to do. We hold on to vengeances regardless [00:46:00] of the level and the nature and the challenge, we just hold onto those.
[00:46:03] And somehow we think we're going to get, we're going to get some, you know, I, even the legal system, as much as I find that, sometimes it can be helpful. It's not going to lead towards forgiveness. It just doesn't, there may be some justice with it that helps, but you carry that stuff with you until you [00:46:20] decide to let it go.
[00:46:21] And you did, and you did an in a very remarkable way, I think just remarkable. Well,
[00:46:28] Collier Landry: thank you. Um, thank you for being a big part of that. Well, that's
[00:46:32] Dr. Dennis Marikis: really great of you to say it. It's
[00:46:35] Collier Landry: um, yeah. It's um,[00:46:40]
[00:46:44] Dr. Dennis Marikis: yeah.
[00:46:57] Collier Landry: It doesn't make it any less sad. No, it's
[00:46:59] Dr. Dennis Marikis: [00:47:00] it is the most tragic of story. It is your life going through that? Yes. I mean you
[00:47:08] Collier Landry: can I be, so my father,
[00:47:12] Dr. Dennis Marikis: he's still your father
[00:47:19] and it's never an [00:47:20] absolute perspective. It's never, it's done. I have forgiven him.
[00:47:23] Collier Landry: Now. It recycles the different parts of your life. Call
[00:47:26] Dr. Dennis Marikis: your, when you face different challenges, too. And, and
[00:47:30] Collier Landry: it, like, I
[00:47:31] Dr. Dennis Marikis: S I said that before, and I, I don't, you know, I, it's sad to say, but you lost so much. But you've also [00:47:40] gained so much, but you've lost so much.
[00:47:42] You realize that the presence of your mom was such an incredible loss, but your presence with your mom is with you most of the time. I think, you know that I think you feel a sense of her, not in kind of a well, somebody kind of in a spiritual way, but I think it's just the qualities that you [00:48:00] bring at times you feel that presence with her and you'd rather have her, you'd rather have the flesh and bone.
[00:48:06] Oh gosh, you'd rather have her sitting the next year right now. Of course, of course. But that sense of it is really where you are. You bring her with you as you deal with challenging situations as you deal with loving [00:48:20] situations. It's just the sadness that is so powerful, but powerful towards your father too.
[00:48:28] I mean, you would love to have had him be a loving, caring father.
[00:48:36] Collier Landry: I would take just not being an asshole and
[00:48:38] Dr. Dennis Marikis: not being an asshole would be [00:48:40] good too. Yeah, don't kill my mother. I mean, it's absurd to say that, uh,
[00:48:47] Collier Landry: let's just start with that. So you don't have
[00:48:49] Dr. Dennis Marikis: to be, I mean, to be loving,
[00:48:51] Collier Landry: caring, I mean, I have plenty of friends whose parents are very detached from their lives, you know, and, and, you know, [00:49:00] yeah.
[00:49:00] Their parents might be wealthy and they cut checks, but, you know, and that's a wonderful thing as a struggling artists. That's an amazing thing to be able to have support from family members. It'd be like, Hey, we really support what you're doing and here's some money. Um, but the, that support is veiled in the, in for that particular example is veiled with material.[00:49:20]
[00:49:20] Things is male veiled by material things that, that are, that have no real substance. You know, I think that, that anyone I know that has been through those situations would much rather have a parent that loves and supports. And, and, and says, you know, and rallies behind them, or has been there [00:49:40] in their lives, then just be like, here, you know, you need your school paid for, you got no problem.
[00:49:43] You need this. Okay. Yeah. Just leave me alone. Don't bother me. And I think that's very sad. And I think that, that in and of itself induces another sort of trauma is like my trauma. Not really, no, but it is another form of, of, of dealing with these people and, [00:50:00] and understanding the challenges that lie within that.
[00:50:05] Dr. Dennis Marikis: Right. I made it sound like, and I think that's the difference in terms of level of trauma. And it can be traumatic to go through a parent's going through a divorce and the parent who you reside with the other parent does not get active in your life at [00:50:20] all. So it works in the same way you work on forgiveness issues, but now we have to magnify it a hundred fold based on what you've been through.
[00:50:31] You really were not given a situation where you could say, okay, so that used to be my life. So this is my life. Now you didn't [00:50:40] really know what life would look like and how it would unfold. And I think that's why it was so hard as it makes it even harder to let go of your father, because he was the only one who had was a piece of your lifestyle in a weird way.
[00:50:54] You know, he, he was a person who created this loss, but also, uh, [00:51:00] was your father who was the only semblance of family that you had left at that point. So it's far different than say a kid going through a divorce, but it's similar in that forgiveness is necessary there too. I just. I keep saying, and I think you're remarkable in your ability to be able to find yourself.
[00:51:19] And [00:51:20] I can give that to you. I also give a little bit to Noreen too. She was so clear about really loving your uniqueness. That's the one thing I remember, one of the things I remember was was how she very much loved who you were in all your Quirky's unique stuff that you did as an adolescent, as a [00:51:40] young kid.
[00:51:40] I got that. And that was, that was very clear to me. And so that unconditional love is not something that goes away ever really, because it really truly was unconditional. She loved you unconditionally. That's a wonderful thing.[00:52:00]
[00:52:04] Collier Landry: Yeah. The filmmaker in me would just say, Hey, we'll leave. Yeah. Do you want to say one more thing? Because it's been shaking in my mind and I've said it continually throughout my life. Not very often and probably not even very publicly when I think back [00:52:20] when I see where I am now. Right. And when I think back to how everything unfolded, and this goes back to the, the thing, when this guy said to me, I was in the Dominican Republic and this guy said, he had said this to me.
[00:52:35] We were, I was filming motorcycle scent writers, and they were trying to really grasp with this whole [00:52:40] forgiveness thing. How do you just let that go? Um,
[00:52:49] I said to them, it's very hard to hate someone and also to not forgive someone [00:53:00] who you feel simultaneous. Destroyed your life and saved it
[00:53:09] Dr. Dennis Marikis: at the surface. Yeah, it's really good way of looking at it's very insightful, right?
[00:53:15] Collier Landry: Because to me, when I think about that, [00:53:20] I don't let my circumstances to find me and I never have, but I'll be damned if I didn't think that because of what happened to me, it has made me the person who I am, and it is allowed me to have a platform that speaks to people that then helps them.
[00:53:38] Right. That ultimately helps [00:53:40] me and create a film, do a Ted talk or Dr. Phillip write books to travel around the world. I mean, these are amazing experiences that I had right. Life could have gone in an entirely different direction for me. Right.
[00:53:51] Dr. Dennis Marikis: Exactly. And
[00:53:52] Collier Landry: I, and I think that one of the biggest things with my life and I talked about this, I was interviewed in the independent a couple weeks ago about [00:54:00] the podcast.
[00:54:00] And so one of my things. Growing up was I did not. I, I wanted to get out of Mansfield because I didn't want to be known as the boil kid, like, right. I wanted to define my life on my own terms. And also like, so I came to the second largest city in the [00:54:20] United States, not knowing a single person and said, I'm going to make a career in entertainment where like $2,000 in my pocket and said, I'm going to go make a career in entertainment and figure all this out without knowing a soul.
[00:54:31] And until the film was like, actually released half of my immediate friends and colleagues in Los Angeles and in Hollywood had [00:54:40] no idea what my story was. Talk about it a lot. And that's not because I was trying to hide anything, but it was like, uh,
[00:54:47] Dr. Dennis Marikis: you know, how do you bring that conversation up? Right, right.
[00:54:55] Collier Landry: Okay. I mean, those were real close to me knew, but they didn't know [00:55:00] the extent of what it was. They just were like, okay. His dad killed his mom desperate, which I think they probably thought you shot her with a revolver. It was a crime of passion. I don't think they realize the seriousness of the crime being premeditated.
[00:55:10] The whole thing, the girlfriend, the pregnancy, all this, one of the, but I didn't want to let it define, define me. And of course, everybody comes out here too with this whole, oh, I'm [00:55:20] going to tell my story. Everybody's got a script of their head where they are here. So I think there was also that, but literally I just remember friends of mine saying, hold on.
[00:55:28] So you made a move, but we met, you were talking about this before. You're making a movie about your life, but you know, everybody says that, but you actually did it.
[00:55:38] Dr. Dennis Marikis: It was like pretty amazing.
[00:55:39] Collier Landry: [00:55:40] It's pretty much what I did. Like, that's why
[00:55:42] Dr. Dennis Marikis: here. And they're just like,
[00:55:45] Collier Landry: I heard one of my friends saying to me, he was like, you know, because it is very competitive and it is very easy when you're an artistic.
[00:55:52] Career to become jealous of those around dude, he goes, I'm really jealous envious of you, but at the same time, I'm really proud of you. And I don't really feel how to take that. I [00:56:00] was like, we're bad. It's all good. I mean, I'll, you know, I'll take maybe not doing a movie about my mother being murdered by my father, you know, and my response to it.
[00:56:08] I, I think I could think of other things to do creatively, but I was looking for this escape. So again, I feel like, and I think the biggest takeaway [00:56:20] from me saying all of this and having you here right now is, you know, the thing with the podcast with the film is that I wanted to show people that I wanted to give them a voice and an understanding that you can make.
[00:56:39] Through [00:56:40] seemingly insurmountable odds. And that's why you take on a profoundly tragic situation and make it pass these insurmountable odds and do something positive with your life, which is what resonates with people with the film, with the podcast, let's see me on social media with my work. Right. Um, and it's a real privilege to be able to do that.[00:57:00]
[00:57:00] Uh, but again, it goes back to my thing of, you know, how do I hate someone who I feel destroyed my life and say saved my life at the same time. Right. Also, I feel like, what do you say to someone that is going through a similar circumstance, whether it be abuse, neglect, [00:57:20] uh, physical w whether their, their spouses has murdered someone or, or, or whatever that is.
[00:57:25] Right. And having come through the pandemic, dealing with all these things. You know, I've been locked up with people for a year and a half, two years. Um, well now two years, I guess,
[00:57:33] Dr. Dennis Marikis: uh, family members passing with this too. I mean, I think it's also changing with this, right, right. Holding
[00:57:39] Collier Landry: [00:57:40] onto this, this grief and this anger.
[00:57:42] Um, how do you, I mean, this, this show is called moving past murder. What is the best piece of advice that you could give someone who is trying to move past their own tragic circumstances?
[00:57:53] Dr. Dennis Marikis: Right. I just think there's not a simple one. I think it almost always in the best way of looking at it is he got to [00:58:00] tell your story.
[00:58:01] If it is as remarkable as your story and you have the opportunity to tell it in the manner that you did. That's wonderful. I think of that. If you don't mind, I'll share from a little, my family, my, my brother-in-law and sister-in-law had a daughter who had. And, uh, on our [00:58:20] 17th year of life, she committed suicide.
[00:58:23] And just simply she couldn't deal with it any longer. So the family decided, particularly my brother-in-law Darren is his name. Uh, Darren and Stacy, both decided they were going to do something about it. So they develop this wonderful network in Atlanta called Aaron's hope for France, and it's all [00:58:40] based on that same perspective.
[00:58:41] So the second portion of it is turn that tragedy in some way of representing ways that you could help others. And that's why I think. Dad helped you because I'm sure you would've been this way anyway, but it gave you a wonderful, powerful platform to help others because, you know, when we think of [00:59:00] trauma, oh my gosh, all the trauma that this pandemic has caused and loss of family members.