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  • Collier Landry

Sociopaths Mash Up: Chris Watts VS My Father, Dr. John F. Boyle Moving Past Murder #30

Collier shows how Chris Watts's behaviors and victim narcissism mirror his father's behavior, both in the courtroom and once he was in prison.

The Watts family murders occurred in Frederick, CO, during the early morning hours of August 13, 2018. Christopher Watts admitted to murdering his pregnant wife Shanann by strangulation. He later admitted to murdering their daughters, four-year-old Bella and three-year-old Celeste, by smothering them with a blanket over their heads. On November 6, 2018, Watts pleaded guilty to multiple counts of first-degree murder as part of a plea deal and was sentenced to five life sentences without the possibility of parole.

Episode highlights:

• Distorted version of reality - how both men seem to live in a "Walter Mitty" world of their own delusion.

• The Victim Narcissist - Both men seem to want the audience to feel sorry for them for all they have been through, completely ignoring the devastation and destruction that they have created.

• "You Have a Good Idea, let's go with that!" - AKA the Grabbing at Straws defense, both men seem to latch on to insane ideas in order to push the narrative for their defense.

YouTube link to this episode:

Moving Past Murder Episode 30 - "Chris Watts VS John Boyle - Sociopath Cage Match


Collier: [00:00:00] When I look at this Chris Watts case, this is the thing that really hits me. If I jump up at 11 years old and asthmatic kid jumps up, my father was six foot three. 220 pounds probably at that time.

You know, if I go into the bedroom, when I hear the thoughts and I see what had just happened, you've already dug one hole. It's not that hard to make it a little bit bigger to fit two or three bottles. Yeah.

I, Hey, guys just wanted to give you a heads up on today's episode. I'm going to talk about something that might trigger some of you because it involves violence towards children. Um, I [00:01:00] found what I'm about ready to talk about really disturbing, which is why I'm talking about it. Um, And, uh, you know, I just want to give you guys a heads up.

So if you're not comfortable with the episode and you want to sit this one out, if this is a subject matter, that is tough for you to swallow. Totally cool. No worries. Um, and if you stick with us, I really hope you enjoy the episode. That's the morning continued today and the most notorious criminal trial in Richland county.

Dr. John Boyle is accused of killing his wife, Marine and burying her body in the basement of his new home in Erie, Pennsylvania, the 12 year old son. And I heard I heard, but it's about this loud. We, as a jury, find the defendant guilty. When I was 12 years old, my testimony sent my father to prison for murdering my mother.

This podcast serves as a type of therapy and reconciliation from and it is my hope that it helps anyone who has experienced deception, betrayal, and dark trial. I'm Collier Landry and this is Moving Past [00:02:00] Murder. Hey movers. What's going on. Welcome back to another episode of moving past murder. I'm your host call your Landry and it is so good to see all of you here.

All of you hear all your thoughts as you guys connect with me on social media as we interact. Well, my IAG lives, all those fun things. Um, thank you all for, to. Thank you for your support. Thank you for liking and subscribing. If you're on YouTube, it's right here or there, whatever you follow me on Instagram @collierlandry Twitter, all that.

And, uh, it's great. This is, uh, we're all building this together and it's really exciting on that note. I want to encourage you guys to please, if you can. Contribute to this program. I have started a Patrion as of last week. It is, all the proceeds go to help make content that I feel connects best with you guys, my audience.

So again, your support is so appreciated because, uh, this is a lot of work and, um, you guys help me create content that I feel that you guys are at least telling [00:03:00] me is really valuable to you. And it's very awesome. But, um, your support is appreciated. Uh, okay. So speaking of support, I have somebody who has reached out to me on Instagram.

It's our listener shout out of the week. And, um, this is from Kelly silver and she brings up a really interesting point that, um, I didn't think of. So I was recently on a podcast in the UK called the scary guy podcast and we talked all things, uh, moving past murder, uh, of course, right. But, uh, Kelly silver writes out to me on Instagram.

Hey, call your hope all is well, I just finished listening to your appearance on the scary guy podcast and something that was really, that was said really stuck with me. When you were talking about getting strength from your mother, is it possible that she had some sort of gut feeling whether she acknowledged it or not?

That there was a possibility she wouldn't be around your entire life? And that possibly is why she raised you to be such a pillar of strength, even as a child. Just some [00:04:00] thoughts that popped into my head while listening during my morning commute, looking forward to Tuesday's IG Live. And, um, well thank you, Kelly.

And I believe, as I mentioned on the podcast on the scary guy podcast, I've mentioned on this podcast before is my mother had alluded to. Saying something, um, where my father had arrived on new year's Eve, 1989. And he, he had arrived on new year's Eve, 1989. And he brought his grandmother. I'm sorry. He brought his mother, my grandmother, and he was really close to my mother.

And she was on the phone with a friend and said, well, he brought it. He can't kill me tonight because he brought his mother. Um, as my mother would say, famous last words. Sorry if that's a bad pun, but my mother would have said that for sure. She was a big fan of saying for David's last words. Um, anyways, so, uh, yeah, I think that there is some truth to that.

I think that when I look, when I think about my mother and how she raised me, [00:05:00] first of all, I'm really grateful with how she brought me up. I look at. And I'm not a father full disclosure. I'm not a father, I'm a for daddy, but, um, I think about the way that parents raise children. And, um, again, I I'm, I'm no expert in parenting, but I do see those that coddle their children and how those individuals turn out or, or how they interact with them in their life.

And those that aren't. Very disciplined by my mother. Uh, I'm sure that's not a surprise to anyone, so, but she treated me like a little adult. And I think that at the end of the day, that is why I became so resilient as a young man. Um, this last episode that we did with Dr. Dennis on the 18th of March, uh, we discuss, you know, him meeting me at that time and realizing that I though Facebook.

Challenging circumstances. I was able to sort of, uh, face them head on, [00:06:00] which was really cool, but I feel that that was a foundation that was laid for. It was set, um, by my mother that was laid for me by my mother. And, um, it's a really cool, cool thing when you think about it. Um, and I'm very grateful for her and of course I think about her every day.

So, um, anyways, before I get all small team, I started crying. Um, okay. So a friend of mine hit me up on text. Week and a half ago and said, Hey man, have you seen this documentary, uh, American murder, the neighbor next door. And I was like, no. Now full disclosure. I know that I talk about true crime. My whole life is true crime.

I am not a huge, true crime watcher of like murders and things like that. These things intrigued me for sure. I think I'm more like interested in things like the Tinder swindler or like financial crimes and how these people. Come up with these elaborate schemes that I kind of find interesting. No, no, no lie.

Um, but, uh, murders and things like that, like they hit a little too close to home. [00:07:00] And that brings me to today's episode about Chris Watts and the murder of his wife, Shannon Watts, and their two children. Um, I watched this documentary because my friend asked me multiple times, he's like, you got to watch this, you got to watch this.

Um, and I literally texted him after I saw it because I couldn't sleep the rest of the night. Really. I try not to watch these things at night anyways, but it's sometimes you don't have a choice, but man, um, there are so many things that are just really hard to swallow or really hard to fathom in this case.

Um, but I think for me, the thing that initially just caught me was the similarities between Chris Watts and my father. And when I think about what happened, look in [00:08:00] the Chris Watts case, you know, he, he had a mistress as my father. Um, it was a little different, uh, But it's, there was just so many parallels.

So that's what I'm going to get into today's episode about. So let's get into it. So in this documentary, it's called American murder, the family next store and not the neighbor next door. Sorry about that. Um, so in this documentary, the, uh, American murder, the family next door. The director, Jenny Popplewell, uh, explores the murder of Shannon Watts and her two daughters by Christopher Watts.

And this is a very interesting documentary to me now, now as a filmmaker, this is very interesting to me because the whole documentary is all actually pretty much all. Footage. Yeah. It's actually all footage from social media because Shannon had lupus, I believe. Uh, so which is an auto-immune disease for those of you that aren't aware?[00:09:00]

Um, so she was suffering from lupus and she also had, um, you know, had a very big social media presence because of that. And she was talking to people about lupus and sharing her story to help others who have gone through similar circumstances. Sounds familiar. Doesn't it? Help them sort of deal with and reconcile with what they're, what they're going through with this physical, um, this physical element, right?

The entire documentary is made up of all news footage, her footage from social media and, and then police body camera footage, and some drone stuff it's looking at. It is a really, really heavy. Film. And it's a heavy case. I remember it because it took place in Frederick, Colorado. That's the only thing I remembered, but I kind of put stuff like this out of my mind.

And it happened in 2018 and I was releasing a murderer Mansfield and I was traveling around. So I wasn't paying attention to a lot of this stuff. The thing that strikes me the most is when my friend said, you need to watch this. He was very adamant. He wanted to know, do [00:10:00] I draw any parallels? And oh my God.

Do I draw so many parallels between my father and Chris Watts so much so that I have placed footage for us to listen to and go over of my father and of Chris Watts. Side-by-side so we can sort of examine these sociopath's really is what they are. Um, Chris, as you, if you don't know, in the case, he murdered his whole family, he had a girlfriend that he wanted to start a new life with and he even talks about how.

Um, I've watched some other things about this case leading up to this episode, he'll talk about how he was very excited to start a new life after he murdered his family. I mean, it's nuts. It's, it's, it's so disturbing. Um, it's crazy, but I want to play a couple of things. Uh, three takes side-by-side discussing with you guys, because this is my take on Chris Watts and his, um, You [00:11:00] know what I perceive to be his extreme sociopathy, uh, which is very unfortunate because people, you know, innocent people died and that sucks.

Let's listen to this. I want them wherever they're at. Like, I have no inclination to where they're at right now. And it's just like, there's, it's like an advantage. Like, she's not like when I got home yesterday, it was like a ghost town. Like she wasn't here. I have no idea, like. So first off, this is an interview with Chris, which took place a day after his wife disappeared.

So essentially what happened is the, um, the, the family disappeared. She was supposed to, she, the Shan was supposed to go to a doctor's appointment. She didn't show up for the doctor's appointment, the best friend called they couldn't find her. The whole family was gone. He was at work. He comes home.

There's body camera footage of him. Then he finds her phone and he's like, everything's gone, everything's [00:12:00] gone. And so this is the local news station talking to him basically. And he saying, you know, I just want her back or I don't know what happened. And it's just, it just, it gets creepier and it doesn't just earth shattering.

I don't feel like this isn't even real right now. It's like a nightmare that I just can't wake up from. Well, okay. It's a nightmare. He can't wake up from well, um, Hey buddy, you caused the nightmare. So. Like I said, it's very disturbing. So he goes on, then I had the kids over the weekend. Did you see your wife?

When she got home? She got home really late. About 2:00 AM from their. So apparently what happened is, is she, uh, Shanana had gone on a business trip to like Arizona or something. They live in Colorado, um, for a business that she was doing as she was coming back. And this was the reporter asking him. When's the last time you saw your wife?

What's interesting is now I have my father on the witness stand talking about the last time he saw my mother. Do you have [00:13:00] occasion to see, talk to neuro. Early morning of December 31st, 1989. Yeah. So that was the one, the sofa and the family room. And Maureen came down and woke me up. Um, she started hollering, uh, Jack, Jack, Jack, and, uh, uh, through credit cards at me.

First of all, for those of you that don't know my mother, my mother, my mother would have never thrown critical. At my father, she never would have. She never would've let them leave her hands. That's the first thing, if she was leaving, did she leave the house then? Yes, she did. So I walked down the driveway.

I ran back to the, uh, uh, table that sits there in the family room and put my glasses on and ran back again to see where she was going. What did you see? Uh, by the time I got there, I saw Noreen get into a car at the edge of the drive. Left the neck bar left in that car. [00:14:00] Here's my father, uh, explaining how, what the last time, the last interaction he had with my mother was she got an, a, they got into a fight.

She threw credit cards at him. Now this is at his trial. Mind you. So if you're listening, this is at my father's murder trial. This is approximately January, or I'm sorry, June. 23rd, 1990. Um, he decided to take the witness stand because they always say that you shouldn't take the witness stand in your own defense, but because he's a narcissist and a sociopath, and he thought everyone would believe him.

And he was smarter than everyone else. He took the witness tan to say all this fucking bullshit, um, which is this whole situation of this fight that happened. And all of us now. This was the last interaction that he had with her. So I'm going to back up just a little bit, and then I'm going to go back to Chris Watts.

So the first thing is, is a lot of people ask me when they see the movie, a murder Amancio, which we're going to play some more of, of, of, of the scene [00:15:00] with my father and I in prison. He said she came at him with a knife and this, that, and the other, or has he been saying that the whole time. This is the court testimony.

This is him on the witness stand talking about the last time he saw my mother. There's no knife. There's no engagement. There's no, he pushed her. There's none of that. So for those of you that have seen the film, or that are wondering what he's talking about, the knife thing. I take you back to his trial when he's literally saying the last interaction I had with her, she threw credit cards at me and was yelling at me and then, or hollering as he puts it and then got in the car.

He had to get his glasses. Then he saw her get into the car. At the end of the driveway. Our driveway was probably. Um, maybe 50 yards long and the dead of winter. And mind you, this is January. This would have been January, I'm sorry, December 31st, 1989. So, you know, my mom just tried it out to the car and got in and they didn't even come up to the house.

You know, it's, it's ridiculous. Obviously he's lying because he murdered her. Um, but, uh, [00:16:00] this is, this is the sociopath at work. So you have Chris Watts literally saying to her. You know, this is what, this is what happened and he's spinning his web. He's spinning his, his tail of, you know, I just want her back and the nightmare.

And, uh, you know, like if anything have a back in fact, let's go to my next little part. So this is again the same interview. This is the day after he has murdered his entire family. And he's talking to the news. Let's check it out. I want them here. Like this house is not the same. I mean, I, last night it was traumatic.

Last night was I can't really stay in this house again. Like with nobody here, poor guy cannot stay in his house with nobody here after he killed them. All this, this doesn't seem real at all. It just seems like I'm living in a nightmare and I can't get. Well, I mean, he is right. He is living in a [00:17:00] nightmare that he cannot get out of because he committed this heinous atrocity to his own family.

Um, but this is something that. Our last episode, which aired on May 18th was when I talked to Dr. Dennis , we discussed narcissism sociopathy. We discussed how it, all of that has related, uh, to my father in my film, a murderer Mansfield. And, um, you know, there is a very, uh, there is a very odd sort of phenomenon that happens with these people, and that is called the victim narcissist and.

This guy, Chris Watts is trying to say is trying to turn us, draw us. Yeah. As he's trying to draw the reporters in to tell his tale of, uh, whatever bullshit he is showing here, um, that he misses his family that he killed and it's it's victim narcissism. So he, what he's [00:18:00] doing is he's, he's trying to, he's trying to get your sympathy like, oh, poor dad.

Doesn't have his wife doesn't have, is this that. That's what he's doing. So now I'm going to play a clip from a murderer Mansfield, where I confront my father. I read him a letter that he had sent back to me when I was, uh, 13 years old. It was in 1993. And I had asked him in this letter and I read this letter to him in the film, but in this particular letter, I asked him if he could just please confess to murdering my mother so I can move on with my life.

So my family can move on with my life. So his girlfriend Sherry at the time could move on with his, with her, with her life, uh, for my sister, my half sister that was born 12 days before he was arrested, she could move on all that we could all have this piece. Could you please just grant us that. This piece.

That's what I asked him. And I read him this letter in the film because he sent this [00:19:00] letter back to me and wrote on the envelope, refused. He read it, put it back in the envelope, wrote, refused, send it back to me. And I always kept it. Like I kept, I have, like I said, 500 of his letters sitting here on my desk.

And, um, you know, I read these on the program, but this is a very key letter that I read to him in prison. And this is his take on this again, the victim narcissists. I can't give you an explanation why I refuse that in 1993, but I think it's fair to say. I was angry about a lot of things. He was angry. I was in a spot, probably broken as I could possibly be low as I could possibly be away from family and friends away from family and friends in a situation that you create.

Uh, significant enough that, uh, I had considered killing myself. I considered suicide. Now, when [00:20:00] I heard that, when he was telling me that in the film, in the room, as this laying out, I was like, oh my God, I'm a very forgiving person. I have forgiven my father. I moved because as I explained before, as I will continue to explain forgiveness, Is about you, not about them.

You're not giving up any power by moving on from that, I mean, this program is called moving past murder for a reason. And it's dealing with these challenging circumstances that you are faced in and, you know, these seemingly insurmountable odds and, and a way to get past them. And. You know, part of that is to sort of take yourself out of it and go, you're not giving anything up.

It's not about them. It's about you and you leading. And many of you have reached out, uh, acknowledging this and, and finding the same, you know, peace in your own lives by doing just that. Right. Um, so I commend you guys for that. I'm glad that I can lead by example. But again, part of me, my empathetic self was like, oh my dad, my, you know, I felt bad [00:21:00] at that moment of like, oh, uh, wow, you thought about killing yourself.

What if that had happened? And then part of me was like, are you kidding me? Like, th like you thought about killing yourself. What about your son that thought about killing himself? You know? Um, uh, it was literally going, I have no clue. No father, no home, no dog, no, this, no that my old way of life is uprooted.

How about that? Or how about your family? How about the girls? How about all these people? Right. Again, it's the victim narcissist, because it's all about them. And that's why I, you know, I'm not here to give you the play by play on the Chris Watts case, but I am pointing out these things that I find very similar to my father's case.

Right. Well, this is like, This is some hard shit to swallow, um, because these people do this. So he's trying to, you know, Chris Watts is trying to get the media to feel sorry for him. And he's trying to obviously spin this web of what [00:22:00] happened to his wife. I think, you know, it only took like, this was like a pretty, pretty like, well, yeah, this is what happened.

I mean, there's a scene in the film and it's on the police officer's body camera footage, because what happens is. The hysterical. We're not hysterical. She wasn't hysterical in the film, but she was very concerned. She didn't get a phone call from her friend and they had, they had traveled the night before, um, in, from Arizona, she had gotten in late.

She was supposed to go to her doctor's appointment because she had lupus. So she needed to have a routine health checkups. And her friend was concerned about her. Oh, I'm sorry. Also she was. What I find just, just so reprehensible about all of that is they are, is, you know, so he, he thought he could just get away with this.

And then the friend comes to the house, the. It can't get in. Then she calls the cops. The cops were like, well, we can't go in until he arrived. So he arrives. And then the neighbor has like, as a good neighbor, you know, I have cameras at [00:23:00] my house and I've had neighbors say, oh, can you look at your camera?

Because somebody stole my bicycle or something, you know, as a good neighbor, they had a camera and they were showing his truck. And you know, this guy is like, freaking out this. Oh, my God, here we are with the cops. It's on the body camera footage. We're watching his television of his CCTV and it shows my truck.

And you don't see anything. You don't see him like taking bodies out or anything to the truck. So Chris leaves, this is the first time the police come to the house. Soon as he leaves, they were looking at the cop, literally all of the body camera footage. He goes, he's acting really funny. Like he's acting really strange.

I mean, This guy has got it written all over his face, which means that like, at that point, I mean, I think if you're a reasonable or a rational part, well, first of all, if you're a reasonable, rational person, you do not do something like this. That's the first thing. But the second thing is you think that you're probably caught, but oh no.

Oh no. Oh no, it would, of course it wouldn't be that easy. Of course he wouldn't have that much [00:24:00] dignity and respect for. His slain wife, children, her family, the community, that's all rallied around, concerned about his missing wife and children, the police officers, all of these people. Of course, he can't do that.

Of course he can't say, I be just like my father, it's a missing persons case. And without his son screaming to hold that my mother was murdered. Nobody listens right here. We have the same thing, Chris Watts. He is literally, so the police. The police bring him to the police station and they say, we want you to take a lie detector test.

And this woman's administering the lie detector test. And I would love to talk to her. I'm just curious what was going through her head because she, everyone knows that this guy did something. He don't know what he did or what the extent was. You know, something happened, right? So she gives him this lie detector task, which he fails miserably because he's lying, you know?

W do you know what happened to her? Did you cause anything to [00:25:00] make her disappear? Like they're asking all these provocative questions and, you know, he's being very provocative in it and you know, and, oh, I don't know this and that any doubles down on it, which is the crazy thing. She comes into the room.

She's like, you already. Failed the lie detector test. So now let's get in, let's get real. Let's get real dude about what really happened. Why don't you tell us what happened? So we can wrap this up and he's still saying like, oh, I don't, I don't know why I failed the light and he's still trying to perpetrate the lie because he's convincing himself.

Right. And this is what I want to talk about, because this is really crazy. So let's listen. We know that something happened to all three of them, but I want to know if something happened to these baby girls from. That you had to take into your own hands and deal with, if you guys didn't quite a hundred sand, that, so basically is the investigator, the female investigator that administered the lie detector tests and saying to him, Hey, um, we [00:26:00] know that something happened.

This is the amazing thing to me about people that perpetrate these crimes, these investigators, these police officers deal with. All day, every day. Some of them are obviously better than others, but this is an investigator. I believe this is like the Colorado bureau of investigation, which is like right below the FBI.

So. Have a little bit of a clue, know how to profile people, this guy throwing them, anything new that they've never seen before. Like they know they already know. They're just like, please, buddy, just make it, make it easy on us. But what she does is she gives him the out. So she says, what I want to know is what happened first and what she's insinuating is did Shanana the mother killed.

The kids, and then you killed her in retaliation, which we know by the way is not the case. But again, victim narcissist here, he [00:27:00] latches onto this idea and he's like, oh, okay. And later, according to court documents, the reason why he latched onto this story is because the female investigator. Brought it up to him or investigators brought up that, oh, the wife could've, it could've killed the kids.

So therefore you took, you know, cowboy justice and, you know, killed your wife because she killed her. There's so many things wrong with this. First of all, that he's in and we're going to listen to the next part, because what they do is they brought his dad. So he lives in Colorado. His dad he's from North Carolina or South Carolina.

His dad flies out obviously as a good father. And I have to say, they're being very cool when you're watching them. Like, they're not like pounding that it's not like a scene out of like CSI or something or they're grabbing. Not that they're very calm and collected. And obviously, because they knew they had them, like I said, dead to rights, but so they bring his dad in and they, you know, their dad sits down with him.

This is what this guy says. Well, I don't want to [00:28:00] protect her. She heard him. Yeah.

So he had this. In the beginning. I don't want to protect her meaning that he's not going to protect her anymore because she perpetrated killing the kids. And then the dad's like, so she heard them and he says, yeah. And then he whispers as if they're not like taping in the room. And then I killed her.

This is where it goes well beyond the pale. Right. This is a guy who not only has committed this heinous act. He is doubled down on this lie that be investigators, like put it in his brain, like, oh yeah, that makes total sense. Like, oh yeah. And I can remember when I was a kid, when my mother went missing, I said, where's my mother.

I'm talking to my father. And we did this brainstorm session. And. I said something where my mom wanted to [00:29:00] always go to Toronto and, uh, which is ironic because, uh, my film premiered at the, uh, 2018 hot docs film festival. I actually have a tattoo from the film festival, its logo right here that I got while I was up there.

It was the 25th year of the festival was really amazing. Um, and my mother's place that she wanted to take me when I was a kid was always Toronto. Cool little symbiotic thing that happened anyways, um, to be able to present the film there. And it was really well received. It's such a great festival. Hot docs were amazing.

Thank you. Um, anyways, we had this brainstorm session and my dad was like, oh yeah, well maybe Bobby. Yeah. She could have gone to, to Toronto. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. That's a good idea. So he started like latching on it. I call this like the grabbing at straws sort of defense. Right. They, they they're trying to, they're like, oh, that's a great idea.

Oh yeah. That's what happened because they already know about. Also, so wrapped up in their own, um, deceit of themselves and they're believing the story and they're selling that, that narrative [00:30:00] to you, hoping that you'll buy it as the investigator, as the court or whatever, and are so like, there's so convincing, which is just scary.

We're going to listen to this expert excerpt and just see. Again, a similarity with a son confessing to his father. Right. So bullshit. And now a father confessing to his son, some bullshit. The Mike killed her by accident yeah. By accident. But I don't believe you.

It doesn't make any sense. You know, Elizabeth gave a statement. That good. His daddy came in and hit mommy and wrapped her up like a snowman and show the investigators how they wrapped her, how the body was. What I'm referring to? There is my, uh, my, my adopted sister who was adopted from Taiwan six months before my mother was [00:31:00] killed, used to leave her bed in the middle of the night and go into my mother's room and sleep in her bed.

So she had explained Gaga by the way, it means brother and, um, in Chinese and Mandarin Chinese. So that's why I say Gaga. So she used to call me Gaga as when she was little, right. Uh, I mean, I haven't seen. 30 years or whatever, but anyways, it's unfortunate consequences of all of this is the family gets destroyed.

Um, but no, but it all seriousness. So that's what Google means. So she had stole Dave mass more, you know, he wrapped her up like a snowman showed this, and that was like a huge thing. Now, obviously she was three years old and they weren't going to have her testify. Um, but that was something that was like, oh, for me, it's less about like what she says and what she.

Yeah, you then what she saw, which this still haunts me to this day. Hey, um, you know, Elizabeth or now Caitlin, if you're watching this, this bothers me every single day and I hope that you're okay. Like straight up all [00:32:00] just, if you are listening to this, I just pray that you're okay. You don't ever have to talk to me again.

I just pray that you're okay. Okay. Uh, or ever see me again. I don't, I don't care. I just want to know you're all right. That's it, because this is really hard and, um, And I know you were there and it fucking makes me, it makes me really sad that, that you witnessed this. Um, he didn't deserve that. None of us deserve this anyways, but okay.

Anyways, I digress, uh, again, so I'm trying to present this to my father and, and here we go with more of the, the, uh, the story. She was in the bed. So again, do you really want to tell me what happened? I've told you what happened? Collier? I did not kill mommy. I did not kill my wife in the bedroom. It was downstairs [00:33:00] when I pushed her because I really believe she was coming to kill me.

No. Let's just unpack all of that. So again, here's a narrative that he latches on to, um, uh, again, this denial, but there's something that's really key. And I didn't even think about this earlier, but this is something that there's a moment in the film when I'm talking about, like, I had seen the case file of my mother's body and I talk about the skull being crushed.

I don't know if it was or not. I can't really remember at the time, but I know that I said that because it was a very dramatic thing. So one of the things that I have. With my father and people like him, is that what they do is they latch onto like the tiniest detail. Right. And if they can prove, you know, it was a professor, professor green and the, uh, in the billiards room with the candle stack at, at the stroke of midnight.

Nope. It wasn't a stroke of midnight. It was 1:00 AM. So you [00:34:00] got the time wrong. So it wasn't professor gree with the candlestick in the billiard room. You know what I mean? They think that like, if you get one minor detail wrong, then therefore they're innocent or that their story somehow holds water. It's very odd.

Um, so again, he's trying to say, well, you know, I didn't kill her. I didn't kill her upstairs in the bedroom, but downstairs when she came in, I thought she was coming to kill me. So why don't you take me to the trial? And he saying essentially, Uh, by the time I got there, I saw Noreen get into a car at the edge of the driveway, left the neck far left in that car.

So again, the whole thing, and the whole reason why I play this is because there is, you know, they latch on to these things and they're just trying to sell it. But again, you know, there's my father, 26 years later telling me a whole different [00:35:00] story because he's had 26 years to sort of figure out. So when I look at this Chris Watts case, this is the thing that really hits me.

My sister was in the bed. I believe I'm asleep. I hear my father's footsteps walked down the hall, but let's just take it back for a second. If I jump up at 11 years old and asthmatic kid jobs up, my father was six foot three. 220 pounds probably at that time. Uh, man, you know, if I go into the bedroom, when I hear the thoughts and I see what had just happened, you've already dug one hole.

It's not that hard to make it a little bit. To fit two or three bodies. And, um, and that's why I've talked about, like, when I went to his footsteps [00:36:00] and I could see them out of my peripheral vision while I'm sleeping, I could see his feet in the doorway. I was like, don't look up. Like, I felt like my mother was saying, do not look up because I feel like if I had gone, like.

I wouldn't be sitting here. Cause again, you've already dug the hole, man. It's not hard to throw another body in there. It really isn't. And I know that's a really sad way to look at it, but look, this is my life. And when I, you know, for me, probably the most poignant detail of the Chris Watts case was the fact that he killed those kids.

And I don't, I'm not going to get into how that happened, but it was gruesome and. He discusses how their voices haunt him. And I say good as they should. Um, it it's, it, it, for me, that's probably what hit home is that that could have been me at any moment. And it's a really sobering thought to sort of take away [00:37:00] or could be my sister to which.

Unfortunately, it was not. Um, as I discussed earlier in the program, um, forgiveness, uh, I know this was a lot to take in and playing the soundbites and things like that. I really hope you guys like that. I like doing this. I think it was really cool. I've never done this before, did an episode. So for me, I found this really beneficial to show some visuals and some more audio for you guys, but look, um, this is what I want you guys to take away from this.

First of all the families of not only shit Ann's family. And I don't know, I can't remember her name, maiden name, but shit Ann's family, but also the Watts family, you know, they were in the courtroom, they were there when he was sentenced. And finally, when it went to trial, he just, I don't even think he, I think he just pled guilty and was like, as someone who has been through this.[00:38:00]

Is not lost on me, how difficult it is to reconcile, losing somebody. You love losing a daughter, losing a sister, losing a daughter-in-law losing your grandchildren. Judy says, NEF, your DCIS.

I hope that they've, I mean, it's been what, three, four years. I mean, we've dealt with a global pandemic and now we're in the middle of a war. I mean, it's, the world is a very scary and dark place sometimes. But on the flip side, this is what I want you guys to take away from this episode. And from, from me doing this show, the world is also an amazing place.

And amazing and beautiful place. And [00:39:00] I know there are dark things that happen, but I have living proof that it gets better and that you can make a difference in your small little corner of the world.

Anyways, I'm Collier Landry, and this is Moving Past Murder, thanks y'all.

This podcast is made possible by support from listeners, just like you. Please subscribe via apple podcast, Spotify audible. Find us on YouTube,

The film a Murder in Mansfield is available on investigation discovery, discovery. And Amazon prime.[00:40:00]

This podcast is a production of don't touch my radio in association with RSA entertainment, please visit MPM to show your support.

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