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Nobody Should Believe Me - Münchausen By Proxy w/ Andrea Dunlop

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A deep dive into Munchausen by Proxy with podcast host Andrea Dunlop.

Andrea Dunlop is a podcaster, and the author of five books, including the novel Women Are the Fiercest Creatures (March 2023; Zibby Book) and a forthcoming true crime book from St Martin's Press. Andrea is a member of the American Professional Society on the Abuse of Children’s Munchausen by Proxy committee and the co-founder (along with Dr. Marc Feldman) of Munchausen Support, a resource site and 501c3. She lives in Seattle with her husband and two children.




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Andrea Dunlop: [00:00:00] This kind of abuse used to be, uh, in the sort of deceptiveness that goes along with both muncha and and nch. And by proxy it used to be a lot harder to pull off and you used to see that it was mostly people who had a medical background. So mostly people who were working as nurses, um, that could pull it off because they knew enough about, um, they knew enough about medicals.

Andrea Dunlop: Stuff. And like it used to be that you would have to go to the library, you'd have to get a medical textbook, you'd have to look up symptoms. Well, what do you do now? You go on WebMD. So it's easier to fake things. And it's also [00:00:30] there's, and you know, it used to be that sort of like, okay, who could we sort of exploit and get attention from in the olden days, right?

Andrea Dunlop: The people who are in our actual communities. So with enough time, Hopefully like people would sort of catch on that this person is, is lying, right? And, and you do see that with a lot of these cases where they just burn through an, a huge number of, of communities. But now there are just infinite communities.

Andrea Dunlop: Testimony [00:01:00] continued. Today in the most notorious criminal trial in Richland County history. Dr. John Boyle is accused of killing his wife Noreen, and burying her body in the basement of his new home in Eerie Pennsylvania. The

Collier Landry: 12 year old son finally took the stand as I

Collier Landry: heard a scream. I heard a thud

Collier Landry: was about this loud.

Collier Landry: We the jury, find the defendant guilty. When I was 12 years old, my testimony sent my father to. For murdering my mother. This podcast serves as a type of therapy and reconciliation for myself, and it is my [00:01:30] hope that it helps anyone who has experienced deception, betrayal, and dark trauma. I'm Collier Landry, and this is Moving Past Murder.

Collier Landry: Hey movers. Welcome back to another episode of Moving Past Murder. I'm your host Callier Landry, and what's going, what's going on people? Happy Friday. I've got a fantastic episode in store for you Today. I have my guest and friend, Andrea Dunlop, joining the program. She's gonna talk [00:02:00] about her new podcast.

Collier Landry: Nobody should. But first, I'm very excited to welcome those of you guys who've discovered the podcast through Jelly Smacks unfiltered stories, and those of you that discovered me from TikTok. Welcome to the program and big exciting news this week. This podcast is a finalist for a signal award. That's right.

Collier Landry: This podcast is up for an award for a best exclusive content, and I would love it if you guys could vote for me. Go to [00:02:30] to cast your vote today. Call your It's in the show notes as well. Please, if you wouldn't mind, vote for this podcast. I would love to win this award.

Collier Landry: It would be so cool. And with your help, I feel I can do that. So enough about that. I wanna go to this week's listener question of the week. So this comment comes from Crispy on YouTube. It says Hollier was more. Wise and smart at age 11 than most adults in today's society. Excellent work, Collier. So I [00:03:00] guess that means if I was smart then not much has changed.

Collier Landry: So I guess I'm just the average adult. I don't know how that works, but, um, I don't know, maybe , I'm just being cheeky. I'm in a good mood. Uh, because you know what, the LA Rams won and they have Baker Mayfield, who was a former Cleveland Brown, and they won last night, which was kind of cool in the last like, Of the game.

Collier Landry: It was fantastic. So my guest today is Andrea Dunlop. Andrea has a new podcast called Nobody Should Believe Me, where she discusses munchhausen [00:03:30] by proxy. But first we're gonna play her trailer for nobody Should Believe me.

Andrea Dunlop: My family was split apart. And I find myself still trying to make sense of memories that don't make any sense.

Andrea Dunlop: I'm Andrea Dunlop, host of Nobody Should Believe Me. A new podcast exploring Munch, Housen by proxy, a form of medical child abuse where a parent fabricates, exaggerates or [00:04:00] induces illness in their. Explore the story of Hope YouBar, a mom of three from Texas who was convicted of medical child abuse and spent 10 years in prison.

Andrea Dunlop: She was so trustworthy, so dependable. You know, in her everyday life. She worked. She took care of her kids. You could rely on her. Why would we not rely on her to tell us the truth? This involves a medical environment and it involves children in most cases, and it is [00:04:30] irrefutably a form of. By proxy is the only explanation for the events that happened in my family that has made any sense to me.

Andrea Dunlop: I wanna make it really clear that my sister has not been charged with a crime. She was investigated and a family court judge did not find for dependency. Doing this podcast is not meant as an indictment. I really wanted to meet hope in her family because in reading about her early life, I saw such strong parallels with my own.[00:05:00]

Andrea Dunlop: She was my baby girl and I have so much regret for hurting her. I love my family, especially my children, more than anything on this planet, regardless of what I've done and the choices that I've made. One of the things I've really wrestled with in this podcast is this hope that I'll do this and that she'll hear it and say, I'm [00:05:30] exhausted.

Andrea Dunlop: I wanna come home. Help me. Come home. Listen to nobody should. Believe me on the iHeartRadio app, apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. First of all, thank you so much for having me. I'm really honored to be here with you and talking to your listeners, my story. So my, my new podcast is called Nobody Should Believe Me, and it's an investigative deep dive into munchhausen by proxy.

Andrea Dunlop: Um, for those who don't know, that is a form of child abuse [00:06:00] that involves a caretaker, almost always, a mother of young children, um, fabricating, exaggerating, or inducing illness in their child. I can get into some of the nuances as we sort of go through it between the crime and the mental illness, but mostly I talk about it as the purposes for the purposes of the show as as a crime.

Andrea Dunlop: Um, so that is an issue that I have a very deep connection to because I had a situation in my own life. [00:06:30] Um, And I want to be very clear that my sister has never been charged with a crime, um, and she maintains her innocence. She has been investigated, um, twice over the past 12 years for, uh, four medical child abuse.

Andrea Dunlop: And those investigations were brought on by, um, by reports from two separate hospitals in the area, hospital systems in the area. It During the first investigation, [00:07:00] my family fell out with us, with her over it. Um, she cut us out of her life and out of my, at the time, nephew's life now, um, she has a second child.

Andrea Dunlop: She has a daughter also. Um, so that is, that is the thing that sort of happened in my life. That was, that was the impact, was that this investigation, um, and. The sort of specter of this, um, cost me my relationship with, with my only sibling. And, um, certainly just, you [00:07:30] know, had a huge impact on, on my family, on my parents.

Andrea Dunlop: Um, it's been a very, very sad thing. Um, not something I ever envisioned for my life. You know, when I was younger, my sister and I were, yeah, of course, close growing up. Of course. So, you know, it has taken it, it has taken a, a very long time to get here where I'm sort of able to talk about it publicly. Um, and that's really been a journey.

Andrea Dunlop: So that started really this sort of [00:08:00] phase of my work with it. Um, started in, started in 2019 when my last novel came out. I'm a novelist by trade. That's my sort of main job. Um, uh, that book is called, we Came Here to Forget and that. Partly inspired by my family's story and when that book came out, I was a new mom.

Andrea Dunlop: I had an eight month old. So I think, you know, becoming a parent certainly brought back a lot of that sadness. I think anyone, yeah, who is a new parent really spends a lot of [00:08:30] time thinking about. Their own family dynamics. Anything that's really, you know, . Yeah. Like sad that's happened in your own life, especially if it's with someone in your immediate family.

Andrea Dunlop: I mean, I think that just comes back in this really powerful way. And so that certainly was the impetus for writing that book. Um, the decision to talk publicly about. The fact that I had this personal connection, which again, is is tricky to talk about. Um, because she has, she has not been charged. So, um, you know, but I, I, I wanted to open up [00:09:00] about it because certainly when my family and I were going through that first investigation and the first investigation, Um, there was not a criminal, there was not a criminal police investigation.

Andrea Dunlop: It was just a CPS p s investigation and the state did not file charges against her in that first investigation. Um, in the second one, the state did a family court judge dismissed that case. That was right around the time the book came out, um, in 2019. And, um, the criminal investigation went on for about two years and they did not end.

Andrea Dunlop: Pressing [00:09:30] churches. Um, so just some sort of, a little bit of detail there just to sort of set the scene, but, um, sure, sure. Yeah, so I mean, I, I wanted to be open about those events in my life, um, that, that surrounded that issue of much House and by proxy, because when that term was first introduced to my family and I, which was, you know, when my parents went to talk to our family doctor about some concerns and she.

Andrea Dunlop: You know, this is, this is a possib, you know, this [00:10:00] is kind of what this is sounding like. And then, you know, my mother went and, and spoke to one of the doctors treating my, um, my, my nephew, and they actually reported it. So we did not ever report it to authorities. We just had no idea what we were doing. I mean, that's, that's kind of the gist of that.

Andrea Dunlop: We, that was the first time I'd really heard that term. And one of

Collier Landry: the interesting things when I was reading about your podcast is as. Doing the podcast or even pursuing, making the podcast, you thought that this was something that was [00:10:30] sort of an, an oddity or a rarity in our society, and you actually became really aware of how prevalent it is, how, how it happens all the time.

Collier Landry: And I guess for me, you know, I, I, you know, I think I, I grow, I go back to thinking like, growing up as a child, I was asthmatic. And I had really bad asthma and it started in my late like single digits, what we do. Like I was like nine, 10 years old and it probably lasted until I was about 13, 14. Sort [00:11:00] of grew out of it in adolescence.

Collier Landry: Thank God. I mean, I still have it, I still struggle with it, but it's not nearly like what it was. Right. But I remember having even, um, you know, like friends whose moms were hypochondriacs. And I remember thinking about at that time, like, oh wow, they're really like not letting their child experience something because they're, oh, they're afraid of them going out and getting germs or things like that.

Collier Landry: And that seems like a very logical thing. This is a [00:11:30] whole other level, . Yeah. You know, and that's when I that, so I remember when I first became, I think it was the Gypsy Rose Case or whatever, which is probably the most famous of this, right. That. . I remember hearing about this and going, oh, like this is a thing, and obviously this was a path of discovery for you, so tell me what that was like.

Collier Landry: Yeah.

Andrea Dunlop: So I wanna circle back to one thing you said, because this is a really important nuance and it's one of the Sure. Questions that I probably get asked the most is sort of how this Yeah. Relates to [00:12:00] hypochondria, um, or. Be just being an anxious parent, you know, being a parent that's worried at every little sniffle and, um, you know, certainly like being like a new first time parent.

Andrea Dunlop: That's something I remember where you just sit there and you're like, oh my God, oh my God. Are they still, you know, are they okay? Are they okay? Um, so that is, you know, obviously very common, um, munch hasen by proxy and fictitious disorders. Characterized by intentional deception. So parents who are hypochondriacs or extremely anxious [00:12:30] parents or even are suffering from full-on delusions, that is a completely separate thing, and it is fairly obvious to doctors and authorities when that is the case versus munch housen by proxy, munch, housen by proxy and medical child abuse is characterized by knowing deception.

Andrea Dunlop: So that is something really important for people to remember that people who have munch. By proxy do not actually think their child is sick. They know that they are doing it. They are aware of it. [00:13:00] Um, one of the, you knows, um, psychiatrists that we talked to, talked about, they sort of do this compartmentalization, but they do understand what they're doing.

Andrea Dunlop: Oh. So it's not a question of sort of like they're not. Quote crazy. It's not helicopter parenting. Correct. Correct. Yeah. And they're, you know, sometimes people do over medicalize their children because they're anxious, but that's a problem where if you can help that parent deal with their anxiety, then you can sue the problem.

Andrea Dunlop: It is. Not that simple, in the case of a munch housen by proxy [00:13:30] perpetrator.

Collier Landry: And, and I think oftentimes when you have those parents who are overly anxious about their children, a lot of that stems from abuse that they had suffered as a child, right? Whether it be neglect, whether it be, uh, the people pleasing that you learn when you're, if you have a parent who's a narcissist, much like myself, right?

Collier Landry: Uh, you, you sort of, you know, you're always the people pleaser. And so you grow up in this, you know, abandonment issues and things of that nature, and so, The child leaves. You have these anxieties, but what you're saying is it's, it is an intentional deception. Yes. It's intentional.

Andrea Dunlop: Nothing tied to it. [00:14:00] Yes.

Andrea Dunlop: And so I, I always want to, you know, I think that's, it's a good point of clarification for people to understand because I think that one of the biggest misconceptions is that this is something that should be treated as a mental health issue. Now, there is an underlying psychological disorder that.

Andrea Dunlop: Causes this behavior that's called fictitious disorder imposed on another. That's sort of the term that's in the d s m, right? That's the term, that's the psychiatric term for it. Um, and that is when people do this behavior and get an [00:14:30] intrinsic emotional reward for it. So they're getting, you know, they're doing it to get attention, they're doing it to be seen as a heroic parent.

Andrea Dunlop: They're doing it to get sympathy. This is how they get their emotional needs met, right? So that's the underlying disorder. Um, but. That's the same relationship. You know, the detective that I've, that I worked with on this podcast, detective Mike Webber, who has a long, long history in crimes against children.

Andrea Dunlop: He always makes. Parallel that I think is so apt. Um, pedophilic disorder is also a mental illness. It's a disorder. But we [00:15:00] don't ask like, has this person been diagnosed with pedophilic disorder? We asked, have they abused a child? So that's this. Same question here. Yes, there may be an underlying mental health issue, but it's not something that someone is going to be diagnosed with in the absence of committing abuse and being charged for it.

Andrea Dunlop: So you brought up Gypsy Rose Blanchard. That's like easily the most famous. Story of our year. Sure. She was never charged. Her mother, um, uh, Deedee Blanchard [00:15:30] was never charged with a crime. Um, gypsy was not separated from her successfully, and she was never diagnosed with munchhausen by proxy. Now, everyone obviously can look at that case and determine that that's what was going on, but I, I, I point that out to say that like, it's not something where someone says, oh, I'm having.

Andrea Dunlop: That would be a hope I suppose, is that someone, if they were having those kinds of thoughts, would go and seek treatment. But that currently is not, not, not what happens. [00:16:00]

Collier Landry: Wow. You know, I I, one of the things that I, and in, you know, doing a little bit of research before we spoke was I realize that this is also will often times involve procedures that they'll put kids through, like surgeries.

Collier Landry: Oh yeah.

Andrea Dunlop: And.

Collier Landry: How does that hap, like how does that happen? Like how does a child, how does a doctor do that? Is it that they're so good? Is there like a, is there like an elephant of psychopathy involved in this, do you think? I mean, obviously we can't, we're not mental health professionals, [00:16:30] so we can't diagnose these things.

Collier Landry: But like, you know, I, I, I know that my father's a psychopath, right? , you know what I mean? Like, it's pretty clear that my father is a psychopath, a sociopath. He is narcissistic. It is all bald. And this sort of, you know, all bundled together in. Pretty bow . Yeah. Ugly bow. Yeah. Right. But, but you know, I can't is just the deception.

Collier Landry: So good. Are they so good at convincing someone like a, like a surgeon or medical professionals? Like is that, is that how insidious

Andrea Dunlop: this goes? This is, [00:17:00] yeah. So, so I'll kind of address that question in two parts. So one is the sort of psychological makeup of, of people and. I should put the disclaimer, I am not a psychiatrist or a doctor or medical professional.

Andrea Dunlop: Um, however, I have spent a lot of time researching this. I have talked, yeah, spent a lot of time and very close with some of the top experts in the world, like Dr. Mark Feldman, with whom I've spent many hours of my life talking, talking about this. So, um, it is a very complicated psychological profile. Uh, it's very high comorbidity, as in if you have the one, you have [00:17:30] the other, um, The cluster B personality disorders with, which you're probably familiar, so things like, sure.

Andrea Dunlop: Narcissistic personality disorder, borderline personality disorder, hi, um, histrionic personality disorder. So all things that are very difficult to deal with on their own, let alone, along with, you know, that underlying disorder that we talked about, fictitious disorder imposed on another. So you do see a lot of that.

Andrea Dunlop: Deceptive behavior, a real, genuine lack of [00:18:00] empathy. Um, I'm not sure with. S um, sociopath, psychopath thing. I mean, I, it certainly seems like the des you know, the descriptions of, of a, of a psychopath or a sociopath certainly seems to match in that they're not thinking of other people. They're not able to attach to other people the way.

Andrea Dunlop: Certainly someone who does something like poison their own child, um, you know, subject their child to a, a necessary surgery procedure is not truly attached to that child, is not able to feel [00:18:30] empathy the way. You or I would. So I think certainly there, there are elements of that in terms of is this something that is, you know, are these people able to commit this because they're masterminds?

Andrea Dunlop: The answer is sometimes, certainly the perpetrator we talk about in season one of Nobody should believe me, hope YouBar A was incredibly, was and is incredibly smart, incredibly charming, incredibly manipul. I sort of think of her as like the kind of classic perpetrator, but the [00:19:00] more I got into this and started looking at a lot of cases, I have seen other perpetrators that were nothing like her, that were not that smart.

Andrea Dunlop: The reality is when you think about it, this abuse is actually, and, and what we've seen is that. The system is very easy to exploit, to commit this abuse. And any parent can tell you like, and, and I think this is how I, I like to make the connection for people to sort of bring it down to earth from this like, oh, it's such an exotic disorder, that it's this one in a million [00:19:30] monster Gypsy Rose Blanchard story.

Andrea Dunlop: Um, we all, when we take our parents, you know, when we take our, sorry, excuse me, not our parents , when we take our children to the pediatrician, you know, I have a five month old. Four year old when I take my kids to the pediatrician, um, which I unfortunately have not had to do overly much, you know, but just for their normal visits or if something is, is up.

Andrea Dunlop: Mm-hmm. . You spend 10 minutes talking with the doctor, and the doctor is 100% reliant on the parent's version of events, they are spending [00:20:00] a tiny amount of time with that child. So what we see in these cases is a lot of stuff that the parents would have control over. So, super common. Um, and I wanna say as a caveat, before I.

Andrea Dunlop: Make this list of, of things that I've seen a lot of in these cases that none of these things, if they are present in legitimately present, make like a parent more suspicious for this abuse. Right? So we see a lot of pre premature births, for instance. Um, and there have been [00:20:30] perpetrators that have.

Andrea Dunlop: Confessed to how they, you know, induced a premature birth. That does not mean that parents who have premature babies should be looked at with additional suspicion. So I always wanna make that caveat,

Collier Landry: but just like somebody that goes by a, by a firearm doesn't mean they're gonna go out and commit a

Andrea Dunlop: mass murder.

Andrea Dunlop: Right, exactly. So, I mean, you know, just like, or these are buying pattern patterns. Be a drunk driver. Yeah. Right. Like we see a lot of Yeah, exactly. We see, we see a lot of these. , um, like a lot of these, uh, [00:21:00] characteristics in these cases, that doesn't mean that those characteristics make someone like more, you know, more likely to commit the abuse.

Andrea Dunlop: So we see a lot of premature births now. Any baby that's born premature is gonna have some legitimate issues. So often these cases will start off with some legitimate issue, um, or some kind of diagnosis, and then, It gets sort of exaggerated or you get things that are induced. So you see a lot of feeding issues.

Andrea Dunlop: Feeding issues are a huge one that I've seen in almost every case that I've, that I've looked at where the baby has diagnosed failure to thrive. So, you [00:21:30] know, again, as a new mom, I'm very familiar with this. The mom is the person who feeds the baby, whether they're breastfeeding or bottle feeding or whatever.

Andrea Dunlop: So if you were presenting your child and they were under. and you're in a doctor's office for 10 minutes and you say, I'm feeding the baby all the time, and they're spitting up and they just can't keep anything down. Why would the doctor know that you're lying? They wouldn't, I mean, the doctor is, you know, and we talked to a couple of doctors [00:22:00] and really like get in depth on this in the third, a third episode of the show, just like their experience of like how they do their job now.

Andrea Dunlop: 99% of the time, this is a fine way to do things. Most parents would never lie to a doctor about their child's symptoms, but a child can't speak for themselves. So if they're saying, yeah, my child's having seizures, my child's having apnea, um, my child's, you know, my child's not gaining weight no matter what I do, um, the doctor is gonna respond to those.

Andrea Dunlop: As though the parent is telling the truth, [00:22:30] because of course, most of the time they are, um, yeah. So it's really not that hard to pull off. And then, you know, basically you see things escalating. So one of the most common surgeries we see is what's called a G-tube surgery. Um, which is, you know, when uh, when a, a child is having feeding issues, they get.

Andrea Dunlop: a a tube surgically implanted in, in their, in their, in their abdomen. Um, so yes, I mean, that is how it escalates to, to surgeries. But I've seen even sort of more extreme, like I've seen brain surgeries. I've seen, you know, we talked about one case where there [00:23:00] was a brain shunt put in a child's head unnecessarily.

Andrea Dunlop: Um, so I mean, you know, it really like it, it can run the gamut, but it's a lot of things that like. , it's based on the doctor's reports, or excuse me, the parents' reports to the doctor. So I think people have this idea that it is this sort of mastermind thing, and again, sometimes it is with hope. It definitely was.

Andrea Dunlop: She had a whole con going about her own cancer. You know, it was very, but you know, she, you can, you can, it's always tests that you can manipulate. You know, [00:23:30] it's never like, they never come in and say, my child has a broken bone. It's never something that you could see on an x-ray, right? It's these other things that, oh, rely on you describing symptoms.

Collier Landry: Like, like seizures, for example. Yeah. He had another seizure this morning. He was vomiting all over himself. The doctors are gonna say, can you show me video of that? Yeah.

Andrea Dunlop: To prove yourself. Right. No, and, and nor should they, I mean, doctors couldn't, couldn't operate if they were doing that. Right. So it's like, no, they couldn't.

Andrea Dunlop: I think that's why it's so important to help people understand not just the [00:24:00] individual red flags, but like the whole pattern of behavior because. You don't want, and like, I don't, again, like my, my worst nightmare would be to feel, you know, make someone who has a child that has a seizure disorder or has cf or was born premature, to make them feel like more worried that, you know, they're gonna be falsely accused, which I don't think is something parents should worry about.

Andrea Dunlop: I really don't think that

Collier Landry: happens very often. Yeah, of course. Yeah. We're not here to, yeah. I, you know, again, you said you're not a psychologist. You're not a [00:24:30] psychiatrist. Neither am I. But what is. The what? What is the, why do they do this? Like is it financial? I guess I was always under the impression there's some sort of financial benefit, but I Is it financial is like they get, they get financial aid for the child's surgeries and they spend that money.

Collier Landry: Or is it just their, their overall need for attention, or do they not know?


Andrea Dunlop: so, well, they, they do know, and actually, so factitious disorders are the sort of, [00:25:00] that's like the umbrella term for a number of different things. And actually there, there is a difference between doing it for money and doing it for intention.

Andrea Dunlop: So there's one disorder called malingering. So that is when someone. Something when they fake illness, either in themselves or their child for a tangible reward. So that's somebody that, that's a straight up con, right? So they're either trying to get out, get out of something, so they're trying to get out of work, get a disability, get a fraudulent disability payment, um, raise money on GoFundMe for a cancer that they [00:25:30] don't have, um, that kind of thing.

Andrea Dunlop: So if it's purely for financial motives, that is called malingering. . Now where it gets very complicated is that a lot of these cases that you see there is some financial gain and there is some financial fraud. But what we think of as a distinction, and this is all coming from Dr. Mark Feldman. Again, this is not like me.

Andrea Dunlop: Sure. You know, pulling this from the ether. This is who I learned all of this from . So he is a great research resource on these. Um, But with, with, um, with Munchhausen, by proxy, with Munchhausen, [00:26:00] um, those disorders are really, even if they are doing something like a GoFundMe or they're getting their kids sent to Disneyland from WAA Wish or that, you know, those kind of things, the primary motive is thought to be really that sympathy and that attention, because they will do that in the absence of any other sort of tangible reward.

Andrea Dunlop: So the way I've come to think of it is that you. And this is the way that that, that the experts describe it is like that is the only way [00:26:30] that person can get their emotional needs met. So like that is the only way that they can feel loved. And when I interviewed Hope Ybarra for the podcast, that's how she described it.

Andrea Dunlop: She said, this was what I thought I had to do to feel loved. And now that interview was very complicated. I watched the movie about your case and watched you interview your dad. I was having so many flashbacks for that

Collier Landry: conversation. I guarantee that. Yeah, it sounds, it sounds like there's a lot of similarities.

Collier Landry: Yeah. [00:27:00] Um,

Andrea Dunlop: But, you know, but I thought that that was, I thought she, that that was probably, you know, the case. And, and they're often, you know, often perpetrators, you know, also suffer from, you know, depression. And so these are people that just can't, they can't get what they need. From the sort of normal positive attention, they feel like they have to be in that role of being a victim, role of being, you know, um, someone who people need to take care of.

Andrea Dunlop: And I think like there's a [00:27:30] part of this, again, just with, with the intention of bringing some humanity to this topic and sort of bringing it down to earth. I think there's a part of this that we can relate with, right? When you have an illness, like think about when you're a kid and you get to stay home sick from, from school, you know, and like, Your mom takes care of you and she lets you have whatever food that, that you wouldn't get to normally have.

Andrea Dunlop: And like, you know, people, people tend to like show up for you when you're in a crisis. Doesn't have to be necessarily an illness, but like [00:28:00] people rally for you, right? It's like, and that I think is what's,

Collier Landry: or my case. Or my case, the family abandons you, but. You know, that's, that's whole other story.

Andrea Dunlop: I know.

Andrea Dunlop: I'm so sorry. Um, I, I have so many, I have so many thoughts, but that's so many thoughts and questions. So many thoughts. Exactly. Yeah. And a lot of that that I related to. Yeah, I, I mean, I think like those sort of mass things of like when we talked about hope, you, Barr's story of like, you know, so part of her story, like the thing that.

Andrea Dunlop: That blew apart the fa the fact that she was abusing her child, um, was the revelation [00:28:30] that after telling her friends and family that she had cancer for eight years and that she was in hospice care, she never had cancer at all. They discovered, and so she had had this incredibly intricate. Cancer battle where she'd had two remissions and both times she had remissions, she had these massive parties and there was like a hundred people at her house and she, she went skydiving and she, you know, parachuted into the second party.

Andrea Dunlop: And just, this is, is so dramatic. Right? And so you sort of think about like that's what they're [00:29:00] getting out of it. They're getting out of it. That like, look at all these people and how much they love me and like they're getting that sort of emotional. Feedback and that emotional care taking and it's very exploitative, but I think there's an element of it, especially when it's people doing it to themselves.

Andrea Dunlop: I think once it gets to the level of where you're doing it to a child, then there's like no longer any sympathy that needs to be had there. But I think, like to me, I've come to a place where I look at perpetrators and I think like that is sad. Like that is sad that [00:29:30] someone would have to go to that extreme to feel, to feel loved.

Collier Landry: Yeah, and it's interesting and I just want to point out, because you munch housing, Is different than munch housing by proxy. So Munchhausen would be where she says she has cancer, she says, and she's personally gaining sympathy. And then the munchhausen by proxy is when she's doing it to the child. Is that, am I

Andrea Dunlop: correct?

Andrea Dunlop: Correct, yes, correct. And so we do see pretty frequently munchhausen by proxy perpetrators [00:30:00] start off. with Munch As Munch. So I've read about, you know, we have a fake, that, that was one of the strongest parallels between my story and, you know, with my sister and Hope's story, was that they both had fake pregnancies with twin girls that they lost at six months.

Andrea Dunlop: And it was this very elaborate thing where everyone really believed they were pregnant. And so we do see a lot of like that kind of behavior. Um, yeah, so it doesn't always, it doesn't always, like there are people that have that. Munchhausen that then do not [00:30:30] go on to perpetrate on, on their kids. So that is possible.

Andrea Dunlop: Yeah. But I certainly think it's like if someone has had those behaviors in their past, that's certainly like a red flag and something to watch out for.

Collier Landry: I remember, so , my mother used to say when I was a kid, she's like, don't make that face or else you're gonna, you're else, you're asking God to make it stay that way.

Collier Landry: Right. And so I remember. Yeah, you make excuses. Right. Even in, even in adulthood, we do this where we're like, oh, I don't feel good. Oh, you know, like during the pandemic, I'm sure [00:31:00] everybody was like, oh, I got Covid. I can't go. . And I, and I would, I always. Well stop short. I mean, I'm not a deceptive person to begin with cause I'm not any good at it cuz I'm just, I'm just not.

Collier Landry: But, and you would think because I would learn from my father, like he was so good at deceptive deception. I would learn something, but I, I'm terrible at it. But what I was gonna say is, I, I will often think to myself, you know, oh, I can't come in. I should just tell him I have Covid or whatever. I'll be like, no, I'm not gonna say that because then I'll get it.

Collier Landry: I don't want to bring that [00:31:30] on to my, to me. So I've never understood people. Who will, and if being sick, it's like, oh, my car broke down, or, oh my, this and that. I'm like, I can't say that. I just, you know what? You gotta just tell the truth because if you don't, then you're asking for trouble. Then your car is gonna break down, then you are gonna get hacked.

Collier Landry: Your computer's gonna get hacked. You are gonna get robbed at gunpoint like you. Like, you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. I think, you know, a lot of people inherently have this like munch housing, but it's not a full-blown [00:32:00] disorder. But, you know, oh, feels bad for me. That's why I can't come. It's like an excuse, but it obviously with these people, it goes next level,

Andrea Dunlop: right?

Andrea Dunlop: It's an extreme, and I think, you know, one of the things that. I think is really interesting to talk about in the context of like the current culture and, and this disorder, is that I think we're becoming a lot more savvy about the fact that attention in itself is a reward, right? If you look at social media like, oh, come on.

Andrea Dunlop: Yes. Yeah. Do people wander dopamine, do ding [00:32:30] dopamine, dopamine don't. Exactly. Right. Like that's what all of those companies dinging, ding, ding, . Yeah. That's what all those companies exploit, TikTok and. Yes. Is there some financial motive maybe that you could eventually become an influencer and have brand deals?

Andrea Dunlop: Sure, but like I think we all understand that the primary motive there is just attention is love, right? So it's not, it's not. Like, I think attention seeking in and of itself almost gets a bad rap sometimes because like human beings need attention. They need connection. Yeah, they need love. Like that's, that's [00:33:00] not wrong.

Andrea Dunlop: That's what everyone needs and wants. The problem with people that have this disorder is that they're doing something extremely destructive. To get there. Um, and I think there's a whole, like you said, there's whole, like, you know, deception is a huge part of this. So usually in these cases you see a lot of other deceptive behaviors that don't have anything to do with medical.

Andrea Dunlop: So like a lot of like, um, financial fraud, lying at work, a lot of like really extreme infidelity. So like that kind of thing that just sort of speaks to like [00:33:30] being deceptive and not having a good deal of empathy.

Collier Landry: Years ago I had dated somebody who was pretty famous. And they would , they would talk about their, you know, they would do these posts on Facebook, which I would would say, at the time I was like, God, nobody like uses Facebook.

Collier Landry: Like, it's like it's all about Instagram. Cause at the time it was like, Instagram was like on the rise, right? Facebook had just purchased them and I'm like, you gotta use Instagram. Well, they wouldn't do that. They'd be like, oh, they're just going wild. Did you see my likes on my post? Did you see it? And I was just like, oh my God.

Collier Landry: Like [00:34:00] every time I'm gonna have to. Every time I'm gonna have to be around this individual, I better make sure that I go to their Facebook page and, and like it, and, and know how many likes they got on that post. Because if I didn't, she would excoriate me and be like, why didn't you look at my post? And be like, because I don't, because I don't give a fuck.

Collier Landry: Like, because I don't care because I'm actually, I'm here for you. I'm showing up because I've seen you in real life. Yeah. I'm showing up for this relationship cuz we have a real relationship. We don't have this fake online thing. Like I think that was the first time that I [00:34:30] became. Really acutely aware of the solipsism that exists from

Andrea Dunlop: Yeah, and I mean, where, where this crosses over with these disorders is extremely alarming.

Andrea Dunlop: This kind of abuse used to be, uh, in the sort of deceptiveness that goes along with both muncha and, and Mancha by proxy used to be a lot harder to pull off. And you used to see that it was mostly people who had a medical background. So mostly people who are working as nurses, um, that. Could pull it off because they knew enough about, um, they knew enough about medical stuff and like, it used to be [00:35:00] that you'd have to go to the library, you'd have to get a medical textbook, you'd have to look up symptoms.

Andrea Dunlop: Well, what do you do now? You go on Web md. So it's easier to fake things. And it's also, there's, and you know, it used to be that sort of like, okay, who could we sort of exploit and get attention from in the olden days, right? The people who are in our actual communities. So with enough time, Hopefully like people would sort of catch on that this person is, is lying.

Andrea Dunlop: Right? And, and you do see that with a lot of these cases where they just burn through an, a [00:35:30] huge number of, of communities. But now there are just infinite communities to, to access. So you can find a group that's dedicated to this rare thing, or this breast cancer charity or this other thing, or like these online groups or support groups.

Andrea Dunlop: And, and there are people that do. That, that do this behavior only online. So Dr. Mark Feldman actually coined the term muncha by internet. And so that's people who just go online and say they have cancer or [00:36:00] whatever. So, but they're not telling, they're not actually going to the doctor. They're not actually telling their friends and family that they have cancer.

Andrea Dunlop: They're only doing it online. , obviously that is in a way more benign. Um, and certainly in the case of munch housen by proxy, you're glad to know that the child that they said was dying does not actually exist. Um, but you know, I always wanna also be clear that that is incredibly damaging. It does pull people in.

Andrea Dunlop: People are credulous, they go into spaces where people are really vulnerable because they do have an illness or do have sick children. Um, [00:36:30] and really exploit those people. Yeah. And it's really, really psychologically damaging to find out that you have been sort of, Putting forth this emotional energy to take care of someone and help someone and find out that they've been lying to you.

Andrea Dunlop: That's obviously, you know, a huge betrayal and that's very upsetting and very hard for people to get past.

Collier Landry: Yeah. I almost wonder if this also dovetails into, um, you know, because I thought, you know, you're talking about, you know, years ago when you didn't have things like Facebook or social. [00:37:00] fueling these things.

Collier Landry: You had to be very specialized. Was sort of a niche, more of a niche thing because you had to have the specialized knowledge. Right. I wonder if a lot of this, it was also inflicted, you know, talking about financial rewards with, you know, people that get into guardianships over loved ones who are elderly or, or can't be cared for.

Collier Landry: Or let's say a kid has a trust fund or something that was left by the grandparents. And I wonder if these, if maybe some of these parents do do this type of thing to gain financial control maybe over certain things or certain aspects as well. I. [00:37:30] I don't know why I always take this back to a financial sort of benefit.

Collier Landry: Cause I guess that's just how I process it. But I, I think that I can just see that the manipulation is so, is so good that it can, it can tick all of these boxes, you know what I mean? Yeah. And, and, and all of these different crimes can almost be perpetrated because of this. It's, oh, it's, it's very

Andrea Dunlop: insidious.

Andrea Dunlop: It's a lot, it's a lot to digest. It's a lot to digest. And, and I, we really hoped in the podcast to, you know, because we [00:38:00] talked to. Well, a lot of different people that had come at the issue from, from different, so I, I ended up talking to Hope Yo Barr's whole family and they were so lovely and so kind. Um, and so we talked to her father and her brother and sister and you know, about what that experience was like for them.

Andrea Dunlop: We talked to some survivors from a different case on the show. We talked to some dads that had been through some cases and I think it's just like really, again, bringing it down to earth for people. And one of the big revelations that I came to in making the show, again, you kind of alluded to this earlier, of thinking.[00:38:30]

Andrea Dunlop: You know, After that investigation and that rift with my sister, just thinking like, I don't know anyone else who's been through this. I mean, Collier, I'm sure you, you felt that way. It's like there's not necessarily like a support group for people whose fathers murdered their mothers. And that's a story that like when you tell someone, I'm sure that it's very upsetting for them.

Andrea Dunlop: You probably end up having to like emotionally walk them through it. Um, and that's, that's really hard. That's very, very isolating, right? So I [00:39:00] think. . You know what I came to as I was doing this story is realizing that everybody who's been through a case feels that way, and yet all of the experts that I spoke to, all of them agree that this is not rare.

Andrea Dunlop: It's not common like every other house on the block is. You know, someone doing it, but it's just pre present in our communities the way that every other form of child abuse is. But we have not yet been ready to recognize this. I think there's something really [00:39:30] particularly horrifying about a mother doing it because it is mostly mothers and sort of the premeditated nature of it.

Andrea Dunlop: Um, I think it's just very hard for people to wrap their heads around. And I think that people will do a lot of back flips to not see it, even if they're presented with a lot of evidence.

Collier Landry: Wow. Um, so taking it back to the [00:40:00] podcast and taking it back to your personal experience, so you said your sister was never formally charged.

Collier Landry: and, and so was, so can you, do you feel comfortable talking about how, what happened or how this sort of came about with her? Cuz it was your nephew that was being, and are the children technically, are they being gas lit or is, or, or is it just way more than that? Like everyone's being gas lit in this situation?

Andrea Dunlop: Well, so I think it's probably more helpful to talk about [00:40:30] this in sort of like patterns and generalities. Um, uh, Because, yeah, again, as I said, you know, like I, um, I certainly have a lot of fears about the situation with my sister because of a long history of her behavior that led up to that. You know, we had things like the, these incidents I describe in the, in the podcast where she shaved her head in high school and said she was losing her hair.

Andrea Dunlop: [00:41:00] Um, she, when we were in our twenties, um, Said she was pregnant with twins. I completely believed her. I thought I was gonna be an auntie. She lost the pregnancy while we were all out of town. She described in detail to me being in the hospital and all of these things. And then it turned out that none of that had happened.

Andrea Dunlop: And I mean, that, that took us, we believe that she was never pregnant at all. We know she was not, you know, she did not lose the babies the way she said she did. It was not until I talked to. Fiance at the time, [00:41:30] somewhat recently, that I was able to sort of go, okay, this is sort of, she probably was never, never pregnant.

Andrea Dunlop: She looked pregnant, we had a baby shower, the babies had names. It was very elaborate and it was very painful. Wow. And so when something like that happens and then. She got pregnant again. Her child was born premature. There started to be these issues piling up. Of course, we had these fears and then you know that she [00:42:00] was investigated by cps.

Andrea Dunlop: Ps I think we all felt something was gonna be resolved. We wanted her to get help. We still loved her. We did not wanna be out of her life. After that, you know, this, again, the state did not bring any, did not bring what's called a dependency petition in the first case. That means when they, the state files to have your children taken away.

Andrea Dunlop: So that did not happen. It was dropped, yep. The first time around. Um, and she, you know, more or less said to us, unless you take my [00:42:30] side here and say there's nothing wrong, then you're outta my life and you're not gonna see. My child, and that is not how we felt. Um, and so we lost the relationship with her, and then these subsequent things have happened.

Andrea Dunlop: So, you know, the more recent investigation was for a child that I, that I have not met. Um, and so I think, you know, a, as those incidences sort of pile up, there's only, to me [00:43:00] it, that's a lot to sort of explain away is coincidence.

Collier Landry: And you just said not to gloss that over. You just said there's another child you have not met.

Collier Landry: Meaning there was an investigation into your, your

Andrea Dunlop: sister or second child. Yes. So the first investigation was into her older child, my nephew. Um-huh. years later when we were estranged from her. My whole family's estranged from her, um, years later when we were estranged from her, she had another baby born very premature.

Andrea Dunlop: And that child [00:43:30] was you? in, in the hospital. And, um, sorry, I'm just trying to remember the sequence of events. No, you're, no, you're fine here. Um, yeah, so that, that child was in the hospital, um, We heard from a police detective that there was a criminal investigation into her. So we did talk to the authorities, but of course that was on background cuz that was not a child that we had been allowed to meet.

Andrea Dunlop: Mm-hmm. , that investigation went on [00:44:00] for a couple of years. There was also that time the state did bring a dependency charge, did file for dependency against her, um, that went to a family court. Um, two of the doctors, including a very experienced child abuse pediatrician, um, testified against her and the judge decided to dismiss that testimony and.

Andrea Dunlop: Dismiss the case and wow, that's what happened. Um, so those are the facts. , those are the, the things that, those are the things that I [00:44:30] know, right? Like this has been a long time that we have not been in touch. Um, I do not know my niece. I have never met her. I did not have any information to share with the authorities other than, you know, what had happened in the past and some of that past behavior and those past concerns.

Andrea Dunlop: Um, so that, that is, that is where, where we, we came to. So I, I. That is, that is what I know, um, in terms of these cases that I have looked at, you know, for the podcast and, um, for my [00:45:00] work and talking to survivors. Um, yes, I have a survivor that I'm very close with, um, called Joe and they actually work with me on some of the muhas and support stuff, and we are.

Andrea Dunlop: Running some survivor support groups, which have been tremendous. I'm so inspired by these people. I, I can't, I can't believe that someone

Collier Landry: could. Yeah. I see that you're on a board and, and you're doing a lot of charity work, which is

Andrea Dunlop: awesome. Yeah. So that's, that's all in its nascent stages, but I'm, I'm excited about it.

Andrea Dunlop: And, um, you know, listening to survivors talk about that exper their experiences, they. . [00:45:30] You know, certainly when you use that term gaslighting and I, I find it so frustrating that I feel like people have started using gaslighting in a very colloquial way. , that it's sort of was

Collier Landry: the most popular, was the most search word of 2022.

Collier Landry: I just did an episode about it. I mean, gaslighting is the official word of 2022, just like last year was vaccines. Oh my gosh.

Andrea Dunlop: And I don't know what that sort of tells us about where we're at. Certainly like what you describe your father doing to you [00:46:00] that is gaslighting. He is trying to convince you that what you know happened did not happen.

Andrea Dunlop: That the evidence is, and I've been manipulating, seen is not right. That it's, you know, yes. That is like, , that's one thing, right? That's gaslighting. Yes. I do feel a little bit like sometimes I'm cruising around on Tickle TikTok and people are talking about gaslighting, and I'm like, okay, guys, you can't just use that term.

Andrea Dunlop: Everyone, every time someone disagrees with you, .

Collier Landry: Like that's, I feel, I feel like there is a gas, there should be a gaslighting intervention. I totally agree with that. I heard, [00:46:30] I, I was watching a television show recently that I'm into called, um, the White Lotus. It's on hbo and this inter second season, the, the A.

Collier Landry: Yeah. So the Abra Aubrey, uh, Plaza. Character. She says, don't gaslight me. And I'm like, but that, I'm like, he's not really gaslighting cause he hasn't said anything. Really to gaslight you. So like, don't say that. I was like, you know what? I wanted to smack them on the hand. Like, yeah, that is not the

Andrea Dunlop: parlance of our time.

Andrea Dunlop: We don't need a clinical term for what that is. That's just he's being defensive and [00:47:00] a, a, he's obfuscating. Come on, let's use the right words. I like using the right words for

Collier Landry: things. I, I. Appreciate that. I'm very pedantic about my language as well, so yes. I just, I, I, I would, I was like, you know what, we need to correct that because, because then it becomes, it sort of, you know, goes down this sort of spiral of, uh, of misinformation too, because it's like, oh, they're gasoline.

Collier Landry: Oh, they're gaslight. Yeah. It's like, no guys, it's not like that. It's not like somebody is actually literally trying to, if you watch the film, right, you know, From the 19, whatever it came in 1930s or whatever. What it's actually [00:47:30] coined after is like, no, I didn't leave the light on. Like, but the lamp is on.

Collier Landry: No, I didn't. You left the lamp on. Right. It's like they're trying to make you feel as if you're going crazy, as if the reality that you perceive, which is the proper reality in your own reality, is not a reality that actually exists. Yes. It's the reality that they are creating for you and telling you that you're crazy because.

Collier Landry: You seem to believe this other reality. That actually is the reality. You're living in . Yes, yes. And what they're doing is they are manipulating

Andrea Dunlop: you. So, yeah. And it's a very strong term and it's not something that people just sort of incidentally do to one another willy-nilly. [00:48:00] Um, yeah. And so I think, but yes, that is very present in these relationships.

Andrea Dunlop: And I think, you know, what I have observed with survivors, and, um, and, and some of the coverage of the Gypsy Rose Blanchard kind of did a good job of, of highlighting this dynamic. But what you often see there is a very cult-like hold, it's sort of a cult of one. Um, yeah. Where that parent, that abusive parent will, um, Will have such a strong psychological hold and they will, you know, cuz sometimes [00:48:30] when the children get older, they will start coaching them into having symptoms and so they'll tell them things like, you need to cough when we're in front of the doctor, or we won't be able to get you the help you need.

Andrea Dunlop: Um, you need to tell the doctor this, or we won't be able to get the check from the disabilities that we can survive. So sort of these like, They'll sort of pull them into the, into the con. Um, and then just this extreme isolation. So what a lot of the survivors that I've talked to have described is that they have [00:49:00] this whole memory, these whole series of memories where someone would be in their life and it would be, you know, a friend or a family member or someone, and they would be their mom's favorite person and they would love them.

Andrea Dunlop: And it'd be around all the time. And then one person that day, one day that person would. Gone and they would never see them again and they would never talk to them again. And they would just be like, Nope, we don't talk to her anymore cuz they're the enemy now. Um, and it's that, I mean, you can sort of see like, oh yeah, anybody who questions that person is now like is, is out.

Andrea Dunlop: And [00:49:30] so what ends up happening then? And then a lot of times also this, you know, the abuse sort of. Evolves. And so one of the things that I've heard a lot of is this sort of, it also transitioning into educational abuse where, you know, maybe they're not taking their child in for surgeries and things like that, but they're saying, my child has all these learning disabilities.

Andrea Dunlop: My child has this, this and that. Wrong with them. And they're telling that child, you have all these things wrong with you. You're never gonna have a normal. . So you have to go to a special school or you have [00:50:00] to be isolated from your classmates. I have to come in and, you know, feed you your lunch every day cuz you can't properly, you know, whatever it is.

Andrea Dunlop: So it's, it's a very, like, there's a very, very strong psychological component and it makes it very difficult Sure. For survivors because, You know, a lot of survivors that I've talked to, they did not realize they were being abused until they were like in their twenties and had managed to get a little bit of a separation from their abuser.

Andrea Dunlop: And some never come around. Yeah. I mean, some never come around. So, you know, you see [00:50:30] people sort of enmeshed or like you'll see one sibling realize that there was abuse that happened and the other sibling is just like, how could you say that? Like, mom would never do that, and that kind of thing. So you see, you know, because I think it's like one of the things that really struck me when I was watching your.

Andrea Dunlop: You know, when I was watching the movie and, and having listened to some, some episodes where, where you're talking about, you know, your back and forth relationship with your dad, it made me think of something. One of the first experts I ever talked to about this said about like the interviews that they do, [00:51:00] like the forensic interviews they do with kids.

Andrea Dunlop: Yeah. And that kids want their parents to be good, like, Yeah, kids want their parents to be there for them and love them, and they wanna believe that their parent loves them. And it's a very, very, very hard thing to have to grapple with that. Your parent might not feel that connection to you. And it was so moving to me to watch you go through that because I know that like, you know, some of the survivors I'm close with are really struggling with that and they'll, they'll have those conversations where like, [00:51:30] They're telling their parent they love them, and their parent is giving them that back, but their parent's giving them that back because they want something from them.

Andrea Dunlop: And it's, it's so, it's so heartbreaking. It's so heartbreaking. And I think that, um, yeah, I mean, I think it's just, it's an incredibly, I mean, it's, it's hard for everyone to believe that anyone could. The closer you are to the person that you think might be doing it, the harder it is. And I think it's hardest on the victims that end up having to look back at their whole [00:52:00] life and realize it was a lie.

Andrea Dunlop: That

Collier Landry: is a very poignant way, , to sum it up by far, I, I feel like we, we could go on and on about all this . I know I can

Andrea Dunlop: talk to you for a long

Collier Landry: time. So really quick, where can we find the podcast? Where can we find

Andrea Dunlop: you? So the podcast is called Nobody Should Believe Me. Um, we just wrapped season one. So all eight episodes are there for listeners to binge.

Andrea Dunlop: Um, we will be doing a season two. I'm hoping to release that next spring. We're gonna have like a whole new case that we're gonna look [00:52:30] at. We're gonna. More into sort of survivor experience and look at some of these systems. Um, and the best place to find me on social media is Instagram. That is the place that I am most active.

Andrea Dunlop: I am also dipping a toe into TikTok, so if you wanna come over and say hi there, I'm also mostly lurking, but sometimes creating videos over

Collier Landry: there. Andrea Dunlop is my guest today and she is an author and just an overall really amazing person doing some really great work. Check her out and links to everything in the show notes.

Collier Landry: Guys,

Andrea Dunlop: thank you so much. [00:53:00]

Collier Landry: Well, that was a very interesting chat with Andrea. I mean, you think about the manipulation and the gaslighting and the, just the coercive control that goes on and just the abuse. It's just child abuse that these caregivers give to these children and fabricate these ailments, and then to see how that works online.

Collier Landry: In a community where they're able to sort of foster this [00:53:30] support for their phony diseases or their phony ailments. I mean, as someone who went with his father, who was a medical doctor, uh, on his rounds to see his patients, I saw people who had genuine ailments. And to think that someone could manufacture that, to get sympathy or to get money or, or, or, or just to get attention in general.

Collier Landry: It's really disheartening, but I'm, I'm so grateful that she is bringing this to light and that we're talking about [00:54:00] this and it, it seems that it's something that hasn't come to light in a while. I mean, obviously there's this Gypsy Rose Case that had happened before and, uh, as we discussed, but. I feel like this, this form of abuse is, is something that, that sort of slides under the radar a lot of times.

Collier Landry: So anyways, it was a great conversation with her. Please check out her podcast. All of her links to her socials and the podcast are in the show notes for today's episode. And, uh, so check her out. [00:54:30] Andrea Dunlop, uh, was my guest today. So please check out Andrea's podcast. There's a link below in the show notes.

Collier Landry: And, uh, yeah, I, I think it's gonna be a great show. I think you guys will really enjoy it. Anyways, uh, have a great week. I'm looking forward to seeing you guys all again next Friday. And remember, I do my Instagram lives every Tuesday at 11:00 AM Pacific. So on that note, I'm Callier Landry and this is Moving Past Murder.

Collier Landry: Thanks.[00:55:00]

Collier Landry: This podcast is made possible by support from listeners just like you. Please [00:55:30] subscribe via Apple Podcast, Spotify audible. Find us on YouTube, landry.

Collier Landry: The film of Murder in Mansfield is available on investigation Discovery. Plus an Amazon Prime video.

Collier Landry: This podcast is a production of Don't Touch My Radio. Please visit mpm [00:56:00] to show your support today.

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