"It's Not Over Until One of Us Dies": Fighting Stalkers and the True-Crime Life

What's it like to have a man stalking you? What about a wealthy stalker with no need for a job, and all the time to feed their delusional appetite? That's the nightmare Lenora Claire found herself in. Lenora is a TV and media star who now spends much of her time as a victim's rights advocate. Her stalker survival story was featured on the news documentary program, 48 Hours. Through her frightening struggle to protect herself from her stalker, Lenora discovered a new purpose in her life: helping others fight back against stalkers. Since then, Lenora has been called "the Erin Brockovich of stalking" by Vice. Listen to her disturbing story. Learn how to fight back against stalkers. Collier and Lenora also discuss the dark side of True-Crime fame. More than ever, victims of violent crimes are having their stories published, marketed, and broadcast to an audience of millions. Is it worth it?

• "It's not over until one of us dies." Some stalkers never stop trying to reach their victims. No amount of jail time, no amount of fines, and no amount of time is enough to persuade some stalkers to change their ways, as Lenora explains.

• The trauma for many victims of violent crimes doesn't end after the crime is over and the attacker is arrested. The stories that are told, the podcasts that are made, the TV shows that are aired, all of it is a reminder of the worst moment of someone's life.

• From Kim Kardashian to Gywneth Paltrow, many celebrities have entire security teams to keep them safe from stalkers and the like. But what do most people do when they don't have the money afford professional security services? Find out.

• After law enforcement wouldn't give Lenora the help she needed to deal with a stalker, hear the steps she took to turn the tables on her stalker; to track him, and get him arrested five different times.

• Hollywood star power from actress and NCIS star, Pauley Perrette, helped get Lenora connected to influential U.S. Congressman Adam Schiff, among others. Hear what she managed to accomplish.

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Full Transcript Below:

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Bright Sighted

Lenora Claire 0:06

one of the guards of the jail actually contacted me and told me he'd been writing me letters the entire time. He just didn't have my address. So he was clearly fixated the whole time. And three days later is making YouTube videos about me. And so yeah, I've had to put it in multiple times since so this people always say to me, I'm so sorry that happened to you. That sounds terrible. I'm so glad it's over. I'm like it's not over until one of us dies like this is not. It's not over.

Opening:

Testimony continued today in the most notorious criminal trial in Richland County history. Dr. John Boyle is accused of killing his wife, Noreen, and burying her body in the basement of his new home in Erie, Pennsylvania. The 12-year-old son finally took the stand. I heard a scream, I heard a thud. It was about this loud. We the jury find the defendant guilty.When I was twelve years old, my testimony sent my father to prison for murdering my mother. This podcast serves as a type of therapy and reconciliation for myself, and it is my hope that it helps anyone who has experienced deception, betrayal, and dark trauma. I’m Collier Landry, and this is Moving Past Murder.

Collier Landry:

Hey, movers what's going on? Welcome back to another episode of moving past murder. I'm your host Collier, Landry and what's going on? What's going on? What's going on? Let's go. We know. Sometimes I sing sometimes I don't. Today. I did. You gotta live with that. I got a great guest this week that I'm really excited about. But I'm going to tell you a little bit about her in a moment. I just want to say thank you for all you guys tune in every week. It really means a lot to me. For those of you watching on YouTube. Please click the like and subscribe buttons please. And maybe a little bell that things you too. For those of you that support me on patreon thank you so much for patreon.com forward slash call your Landry's where you can find all of that. Your support means the world because there are no ads on this program, which means that it is only supported by listener view. Listener support. So you know, hey, please help out if you can. And if not, that's okay. I just appreciate you guys tuning in liking, subscribing, telling all your friends, writing reviews, really good reviews, I hope and all that stuff but no in all services. But I want to get to speaking of listeners, another listener Question of the day or actually listener comment of the day, which I found really funny. This is from Ashley Mitchell 288 on Tik Tok. And she was responding to my another of course letter from my father that I read on Father's Day, which was part of my Father's Day episode, Happy Father's Day to a horrible father. So I'm gonna read her a little comment, which is just literally, I hate that I found narcissistic father, tick tock. But I am also comforted by the fact that I'm not alone in airing it out and making dark jokes about it. Well, Ashley Mitchell 288. That's all we can do. All we can do is make really dark sardonic jokes. And I'm going to tell you guys something. A lot of people over the years have questioned V, and my sense of humor about this whole situation with my parents. And you know, with the murder of my mother by my father, and how can you think it's funny? How can you say, Look, I don't think it's funny. But humor is a way that we all process the world. I mean, look at all the troubled comedians that we've loved in the past the Richard Pryor's the SAM kinesins of the world, the you know, the Robin Williams of the world, they all air out there, they have aired out there sort of trouble pass and troubles in a positive way. And it's a give back to the world and make the world laugh with them. Right. Which is cool. And look, to be honest with you. My mother had a very sardonic and dark sense of humor a lot of times, in fact, in the movie and murder mass when we talk about my mother, I think we talked about this and if we don't, I'm going to tell you about it right now. My mother's my mother used to say Famous last words, and I've probably said this before, but my mother used to say Famous Last Words was like always her little thing. Oh, Famous last words. But she literally said to her best friend the night that my father came home the night that she was murdered. She said, Oh look, he brought his mother with him. So I guess he can't kill me tonight. And in fact, he did. So I have to find a little bit of humor in that. And I think that my mother would find some humor in all of this too, because you know what else you're going to do? be miserable and cry and just, you know, I mean, crying is good. Crying is healthy. I cry a lot, actually. Even at the drop of a hat full of not kittens, but Chihuahuas. But in all seriousness, I mean, you just kind of have to take the world With a little bit of a grain of salt, because then you'll go crazy if you won't, and I probably would be in a nut house a long time ago, if I didn't have my mother's inherited sense of humor. So here I am, airing it out, making jokes about it, because that's what we got. And that's our gift to the world. And I share that with you guys every week. And thank you again for tuning in. So speaking of getting sorted out your own personal trauma and looking at the world, in a kind of a skewed perspective than I think most and and I, as I've said many times, and I think it's very apparent on anyone to anyone who listens to this program. I am a very, like, I'm a perpetual optimist. I'm the guy that my friends go to when everything is down, and they're like, oh, let's talk to call you because he has a great outlook on life. I mean, for the most part, I do, and I try to be very positive about things. They're obviously very horrific things that happened. In fact, one of my friends was almost killed the other day by gunfire in Hollywood, and his passenger was shot twice in the abdomen, as they were sitting on the street, in his car talking.

What is the world coming to, but again, he is okay. He was missed. The girl who was shot twice, I believe in the abdomen, she is in intensive care. And, but she is going to make it and she's going to survive. And that's amazing. But it's still a horrific thing that happened. There's a GoFundMe, I think we'll put it in the show notes, actually. But on that note, so this, this guest I have today has lived a life just like me, I mean, not same thing, but has lived through a lot of trauma, has lived through some really dark shit and is one of those people that is a very creative and inspiring person. And she's just a fun, overall person to know. And I have gotten to really know her recently, as I'd be as I started the podcast and became very involved in the true crime world, you know, recently in the last, you know, four or five months, you leading up to crime con, and it became made aware of her but I've actually known her for probably close to a decade off and on because we have worked with different directors, different makeup artists and different, you know, casting agents because she's done casting before. So we've come in each other's orbit a lot of times, but we've never actually started to like, sit down and like talk to one another or understand the hey, we're both victims, because a lot of people in my world in Hollywood did not know my story until I made a murder in Mansfield. So I wasn't always talking about it. I mean, they knew the ancillary details like look, hey, call his dad killed his mom when he was a kid. And that's all they really knew. So it wasn't until the film came out and end of 2018 that people started to like sort of know my story that were in my immediate vicinity. And but Leonora Claire is my guest today. And so she has been kind of in the orbit of my world. Now she is most well known as the Erin Brockovich of stalking. And and Leonora has a very interesting history. She has been a casting director. She was an art gallery owner. She is an artist herself and an actress and a performer and she's just a really, overall genuinely cool human being. And we actually, finally I mean, we've seen each other at events, but we finally sat down, had dinner with her wonderful husband, Henry, and, and Tara Newell was there and we got to talk and we and we got to know each other really well. And I said, Look, you gotta be on the podcast, I got an interview. So, Leonora had dealt with a very serious situation where she was dealing with a stalker that was and I'm gonna mess up the schizoaffective that's the word I'm looking for. There were schizo affective, and they basically were talking very high profile celebrities like Kim Kardashian, Gwyneth Paltrow, I believe others and then Leonora and it wasn't, you know, obviously, people who are of that level as the Kardashians, they have their own private security and things like that, that handle these types of things for for them, but you know, Leonora was just a lay person, like the rest of us, myself included, and, you know, had to take matters into her own hands with the LAPD and really be proactive, for her own survival and for her own safety. And she, and she did that and kudos to her for standing up. And now she's turned that, you know, she has moved past that and using her personal trauma, and what she has been to to help other victims from anywhere from writing restraining orders, to working with the Los Angeles District Attorney's Office, the crime victims advisory board, and she has an agency called the lindora Claire agency, and that Agency helps to represent victims and survivors in true crime that are often having their stories exploited or they are on shows like Dateline 48 hours where they come in and they just kind of RAM sack you. And they you know, you you just tell all your story, and then you're kind of left hanging you You don't get paid. You don't you don't see a therapist afterwards, she kind of is she is not kind of she is an advocate for those survivors to be able to get them treatment to be able to get them paid to be able to look out for them and their best interest when they're exposing, and reliving and forced to relive so much of this tragic and traumatic circumstances that they have, they've had to endear or endure over their lives. So she, you know, kudos to her for doing that and for turning her her pain into her passion, and and making a difference. So I am pleased to welcome to the program. Leonora Claire. Laura, thank you so much for joining the program.

Lenora Claire 10:39

Hey, thanks for having me. Collier.

Collier Landry 10:40

We were just sort of side sidebar before I brought you on regarding the Johnny Depp case, and ever heard trial, and you have some interesting perspectives. But I want to get into that a little bit. But I wanted to say thank you for joining the program and taking the time with us. But also I wanted to, you know, as I was explaining to you before, I have become very interested in why people are drawn to true crime. And I know you know, there are two types of people there are people that are very much that are into it, and are fans of it. And then there are people that are pulled into it much like myself and you and Taryn Newell, care Robinson Chamberlain, and I like to hear your story on how you, you got to be a part of this whole world.

Lenora Claire 11:32

Oh, well, well, first, I'll introduce myself for people who don't know me already. As you said, my name is Laura Claire, I am a activist. I am an advocate. I am a member of the Los Angeles District Attorney crime victims advisory board. I'm a longtime it just like yourself entertainment industry professional. And I've started a company called Lenore Claire consulting, because I started realizing as I was telling my story, that there can be this like really intense additional level of media based trauma. And people have already been traumatized by nature of doing these shows. So I created the company, which kind of got us all together. And it's been awesome. Because I started realizing that, you know, my experience is both victim survivor and advocate victim survivors, but also TV producer like, wow, that's a unique series of things that all kind of come together. So anyways, I just wanted to like intro myself a little bit just I don't assume that everybody knows who I am. And I like to pretend again, everybody knows me, but not everybody knows me. Yeah, so I guess my story begins. I had a really unconventional childhood in Los Angeles. I was having a great time I opened up an art gallery. I was really proud of it. It was doing well. I used to back back before I was like the sort of serious life that people know for me now I used to do shows like Golden Girls Gone Wild, which was like erotic depictions of the Golden Girls. So as having a great time, I had this really cool art gallery. And I always have to sort of clarify for people like my dad was a psychiatrist, and I really don't want to stigmatize anybody who's struggling with mental illness. But as we get into my story, and I talk about my stalker, my stalker is schizoaffective, which is the combination of schizophrenia and bipolar. So when I talk about that, I'm not saying that everybody who's schizoaffective is dangerous. I'm just saying my stalker is dangerous. So, take it back to the year 2011. I opened up my art gallery, all over the press in LA. It's a really fun, exciting time for me. And there's a schizoaffective man whose birth name is Justin massacre, but he's legally changed to cloud star chaser. He's out in New York and he's stalking Ivanka Trump again, this is 2011 Ivanka Trump, and he's arrested multiple times for stalking her he tries to kill himself or her store like this is a very scary, scary, dangerous problem person. So he ends up jumping bail on one of the situations with Ivanka and he comes to LA, he opens up the LA Weekly where I was named one of the LA Weekly people the year so he sees this picture of me. And he becomes really like fixated. And he shows it to my gallery. And he's wearing a spacesuit. And I'm the kind of person like, I'm used to quirky characters that I'm like, like you like, Well, don't talk to anybody, you know, like, really friendly. And so the site comes up and I was like, Cool. So you start us What's up, Spaceman? You just talking to him? And I remember he was clearly very intelligent, and he's looking at me and like, you know, when you can feel like the crazy just kind of come in, like, the eyes start to spiral. I was like, Oh, shit, and he's looking at me. And he's like, Oh, you look like Jessica Rabbit. I'm like, oh, yeah, sometimes. And it looks right at me and I'll never forget it and he goes, I'm gonna stalk you. Excuse me, so I kicked them out of my gallery. I just it was like really weird and jarring. But I didn't think that much of it. I was like, okay, weird. I would kick them out of the gallery. I think it's all done. And then I started getting all these like calls from my friends because it had been in the news. I guess the Trump's had hired again in 2011. Trump's had hired bounty hunters to extradite him back to New York to stay on trial for everything with Ivanka they're like is isn't that the weirdo that you had the thing with? I was like, oh my god, so weird. So He goes to New York and then he goes to jail on Rikers Island and starts writing me these like really unhinged letters. And at first they're sort of like these just like long ramblings and like they're creepy but I'm like okay, whatever dudes in jail in New York and then they start to get progressively like I hope like do you do trigger warnings on your show? Do you do that for people?

Collier Landry 15:20

I tried to as many times as sometimes I forget to them, but I tracked Yeah,

Lenora Claire 15:25

okay, so trigger warning if if themes of homicide and sexual assault and kidnapping are triggering to you then you may want to walk away from pet your dog go go have a Snapple I don't know. So he starts writing me these incredibly graphic, you know, depictions of how he's going to kill me rate me kidnap me and I'm just thinking, Oh my god. So I take it to LAPD northeast division again. I was like stack of incredibly graphic rape and death threats from a man that already a long criminal history. And LAPD northeast division looks at me and if I don't know, are they listening or watching this primarily is it's mostly a podcast,

Collier Landry 16:05

it's about as a podcast, but there is a visual aspect. He goes on YouTube as well. So our listeners will see you.

Lenora Claire 16:11

Okay, so if you're not watching and you're just listening, I have I have very bright red hair. So the police told me to dye my hair get off the internet, you know, anything to like, minimize myself, make myself less basically sucking vanished are not going to help me. So I became incredibly frustrated, and I go back home. And I was like, Okay, so my stalker comes from a very wealthy family. And he's never had a job ever in his life to my knowledge. And he's just goes around the country stalking and harassing women, right? So I start to track his IP from his email so I can get like an idea of where he is in the country. So I know what level of danger I'm under, because I'm like, no one's going to help me I have to learn like risk minimization myself. So I like white, I wiped my address off the internet, like I'm doing everything I can proactively, but again, it's every day is like, how I'm going to rape you how I'm gonna kill you. And my stalker. So he's schizoaffective. As I mentioned, he also has a personality disorder called irata. Mania, which is where they have a false relationship with you. It's kind of like remember David Letterman, stalker who thought they were married, it would break into his house?

Collier Landry 17:15

No, but I see. I don't really pay attention as much. And if this is one of the things I think that you and I discussed is, you know, is with stalking, you know, I don't know how seriously some people take it until it's too late. And you know, you and I were talking about that before, but so no, I don't know these the stalkers. But really, what is skits so effective? What does that

Lenora Claire 17:40

mean? Effective? Yeah, it's when it's when it's the combination of schizophrenia and bipolar. So he's schizophrenic, you know, he hears voices and all that kind of stuff, but the bipolar he can be manic. So when the bipolar is kicking in the mania, I would get like 300 emails in one day, then I knew he was manic at that point. But then he also gets depressive, that's the bipolar. So but with the addition of schizophrenia,

Collier Landry 18:03

okay, so was he doing this when he was in Rikers, he was emailing you or he This was after he got out

Lenora Claire 18:08

at that, at that point. It was physical letters he was sending to my gallery and then as soon as he got out, it turned to emails so because he wasn't New York has like some of the worst stalking laws in the country. So yeah. Yeah, he didn't spend very long in jail that time. So So yeah, so I started that time. I mean, I personally put him in jail five times myself. That's just wow. Yeah, so So my stalker again, he's, he's sending me these graphic rape and death threats. And what I was trying to explain is he's got a lot of media. So sometimes he thinks we're married, we're in a relationship. And other times, I'm the head of a Zionist conspiracy, and he's got a gas me through my door was like Lumbee, which killed my relatives in the Holocaust. And that's this particular scenario, which is so let me tell you for years, I had the worst insomnia because where I used to live, I live in a very safe situation now or I used to live with just a little apartment, you know, anybody could come in from the street and gas me through my door. So it was, it was I did I did not sleep well for like a decade. So right, so I'm kind of like learning these techniques to try to help myself to not get killed. And then I had to, I had to give up my art gallery because I couldn't have a public facing job or he could just come in at any time. So imagine your listeners, whatever, you've worked so hard for the thing. You're so proud of your job, you have to like walk away from it so that we don't we don't really with stalking, I always say it's kind of like sexual assault in the 70s. How like widely misunderstood it is people don't get it. And people don't understand how it really infiltrates so many aspects of your life, your relationship, your career. It's not it's not just like a single singular thing. It's kind of like all encompassing. So I give up my my gallery, which was so proud of and so I started working in reality TV. My mentor is this amazing guy. He gave me a whole new career, and he sends my boss a day threat, which as you can imagine, people are so terrified of workplace violence, especially Oh, my coworkers are like googling him and see he tried to kill himself and Ivanka store. So he's got this history of workplace violence. So, and again, like no, no shade on my former boss, because I worked. Basically, once my stalker went to jail, which is years later, I worked for him again, like, we're totally cool, I love him. But what ended up happening was, I just didn't get my contract renewed. So I fend lose, I then lose that job. But more importantly, Connor, I think you and I are very similar about this. It's like people can do something to us. But if you do something to a loved one, like that's it, like, I'm not standing for that at all. Like, I cannot handle that. So when my boss got the death threats, I go back to police. And I'm like, you have to do something. It's not just the death threats to me, it's to my mentor, like you have to do something. And they were just, they were just as terrible than me. Like they wouldn't they wouldn't do anything. And so I was like, Well, fuck this. I work in TV. So that's when I decided to go public. And it's really important to know, I first went public in 2015. I went public before me too. So when I went public, let me just tell you the first TV show that I did, people saw me they were like, Oh, you just want attention. And I'm like, I've been on TV since I was six. Like, it's not about attention. I don't need this kind of attention, you know. So people would tweet at me and it was there was a lot of internalized misogyny. A lot of women would write me like dress how you want to be addressed. And I made the mistake of wearing red lipstick. And they really they didn't believe me, and it was it was awful. So it was just getting really bad. So anyway, I start kind of just going this is bullshit. And I started coming up with ideas for for legislative proposals and all kinds of and that's when I first met Congressman Adam Schiff. And again, this is before he was head of House Intelligence Committee, Adam Schiff, he was just like my local congressman. So I met him through my friend Pauley Perrette, if people remember her from the show, NCIS she's connected as she herself is also a longtime stalking survivor. So she connected me with Sheriff, I started working with him meeting with the district attorney and the city attorney and the chief of police. And he took my proposals to the Department of Justice. So here I am, this personally works in like reality TV, and all of a sudden, like my proposals are going to do and I'm like this, I guess is what has to be. I started working with other people. So part of the difficulty with restraint, there's a lot of difficulties with restraining orders, but there was no judge saying that I didn't deserve it. Every judge is like you deserve it. But if someone doesn't have a fixed address, if you don't know where to find them, you can't serve them. Right? It has to it needs, it needs that to go into effect.

Collier Landry 22:35

I'm just taking all this in it's it's a lot thinking about the fixed address, even just the fixed address thing. It's like if you can't, so you can't get a restraining order because they can't serve them. So if they're a transient or they have no there's couch surfing, like, right? They just don't assume they're a threat.

Lenora Claire 22:54

Right? Or you just don't know where they live. Right? So then you can't serve it. And so my whole thing is, if you can send me a death threat over email, why can I send you a restraining order back through the same and there's there's ways to know if an email has been opened up? Like we have legal precedent for things like foreclosure notices, you can do that digitally? Like why can't we do that? So anyway, so anyway, for they were saying, yes, we'd give you a restraining order, but you don't know how to serve it. So luckily, not luckily, because he did something awful to a woman in San Francisco, my Stalker was detained for an incident with somebody else. They see my pending restraining order in the computer, and he got served. So that was that was fortunate. So then I start helping other people get restraining orders. I've actually done 100. Now for people, I always say it's not a frozen yogurt punch card. So I stopped counting at 100. But I started, I started going well, I need to be the person that I needed. You know what I mean? Like I needed to start, like, helping other people with the things that I've learned. So I started kind of getting involved that way. And then and then we started filming in 2016, which aired in 2017. They did a two hour special on 48 hours. And my story was like the first hour was like a bunch of people who were stopped the second hour is all my story. And you know, 48 hours, it was a big one. I think like 17 million people watched the first two hour special and you know, 48 hours they they did something which is really complicated for me now to think about which is they I understand as producers why they did it and I have to say a lot of these shows they're used to doing homicides. They're used to doing cases that have been adjudicated they're not used to do in an adjudicated cases with living survivors right. So I believe that they were nothing but well intentioned in this which is they made the decision to interview my stalker without telling me or asking me so on one hand I have this like incredibly compelling terrifying footage of my stalker threatening to kill me do all these things. So like on one hand, I'm like, Why does the public need like that's what it took for the public to believe me like you didn't just believe me now we need this footage. But what ultimately happened was I believe that's what triggered my stalker to attempt to kidnap me. Right? So that's a very, very heavy thing. And like again, I have this footage, no one could deny it but I just wish I had asked if that was something that I wanted. I might have said yes, I might have said yes. Get me that footage. Get that evidence. But it was so jarring for me to get the emails from my stalker saying, Yeah, we're on the show together. We're gonna be I was like, it was so messed up.

Collier Landry 25:35

Yay, we're on the show together.

Lenora Claire 25:37

Right? Right. So that's what really got him fired up. So then my stalker comes to LA with the express purpose of killing, kidnapping, raping me, you know, all those things. He comes to La looking for me. He tries to kidnap my dog from the dog groomer. He tries to he goes to work, get my eyelashes done and scares all the women. So um, my Stalker was also stalking Kim Kardashian. And so I had been in contact with her very intense ex Mossad security team and I thought for sure, you know, ex facade, like no one's more badass than them that they're gonna cache. So that's what I thought. And that's not what happened even though they are amazing. And we should all be so lucky. The 13 point 5 million Americans currently being stopped. We do not live in gated communities, we do not have security teams. People like me. And then he writes to me and he tells me that he knows I go to LA ComiCon and he's gonna go there and he's gonna kidnap me and that way he can harness my powers since I'm not using that my powers that I'm not using properly so he can go fight ISIS, right? That's correct. All right. Got it. So he doesn't know that I actually know the owners of La Comic Con so I worked with ComiCon I will say they were amazing. The kids were never in danger. Like they have such great security. They helped me get security and dress them up you know like Batman, Superman whatever to like blend in. And when my stalker came to get me we caught him and we turned him into LAPD so by the way, LAPD just loves when I share that part, but that's what happened. That's what happened was I we caught so Batman and Superman I may be wrong and maybe another day it might have been sore. I don't know. I wasn't I wasn't a different part of the building. Luckily, security dressed as characters, caught my stalker called LAPD delivered him. And then out of nowhere, I don't I don't know the details, but he Gwyneth Paltrow served to a restraining order there was something he did to her children. That was scary. I don't even I know I'm like I don't even know when falters in the next. So he was unhealed on a million dollars bail, which like never happens. But that was amazing that they did that because he couldn't pay his bail slightly in this in the interim in that year's time vice to this article about me where they call me the Erin Brockovich of stalking, which was like a lot too, a lot to live up to right like that's like a but what that what that meant was that people who were enjoying this particular crime started contacting me like literally every single day since that article came out, because if you're being stalked, you know, you're Googling, you're looking for help. So that's when I started doing, doing the restraining orders pulling trackers off cars, support groups, I do I do it courts, like I go to court with people and be like a human shield. So that's when all that sort of activism was happening to you.

Collier Landry 28:28

So really fast. You said pulling, pulling track pulling trackers off of cars, like that's right,

Lenora Claire 28:34

anyone could, anyone could go to Amazon for 50 bucks and put a GPS tracker on the bottom of your car. And they do. I mean, it's really simple. Like if someone is trying to surveil you, they can send you a link that says like 50% off Sephora, you click on it there on the GPS on your phone, like that's the kind of stuff that I teach people what to look out for, because it's what I've had to deal with. So I guess your eyes, you're just like, This is so sorry, I

Collier Landry 29:00

just, I think that this is the thing that I that I'm gonna interrupt you for a second, this is the thing that I get. When I talk to other survivors, and when I talk to people who have gone through, especially like this, this, especially it's so much more prevalent in stalking, I think and assay, and the lengths that these people go to. And the amount of effort that they put in is astonishing. And I think that you know when I think about like the things that you and I are doing and the the amount of work that we put in to try to raise awareness, to try to talk to people to try to bring stories to light. There is somebody on the flip side doing the opposite. They are doing they're plotting, they're scheming, and then you say, you know, he came from a wealthy or affluent family that was obviously bankrolling it, you know, you think about Robert For example, you know, who passed away from COVID. This year, you know, was about ready to face trial for the murder of his ex wife, Kathleen McCormack right, or his wife at the time, and her disappearance of what happened. And then you have this whole you have sweet he was from one of the wealthiest real estate families in New York City. And he was able to fund his lifestyle of doing bad shit because of this. And it's just, it's, it's mind boggling.

Lenora Claire 30:36

Yeah, people who are obsessed and fixated. I mean, it can, it can be anybody from all walks of life, who's, you know, both the victim and the offender in this case, but definitely, it almost is a crime of privilege and that you have to have like, you can't be working. I mean, it's like very hard, which isn't to say that stalkers don't have regular jobs, that plenty that do. But in my case, he just had all the free time in the world to stop myself and many, many other people. So So yeah, so the day the day of we were supposed to have my trial, I have my victim impact statement. I'm like ready to go. And I get there. And the DDA tells me that we're going to take a plea deal, okay, for felony stalking Max, but whatever that is, no one else has ever made them a felon before this is a key this is a big get, even though I always say like the idea of jet like, what is justice, you know, doesn't restore repair and what happened to me? And it's certainly just, it's temporary. So he got well, so in California have to explain we have a law that I understand why people voted for it. It's called Proposition 57. And the language that was put out was, you know, people who are convicted of nonviolent offenses get reduced sentencing, which makes a lot of sense, right? To me. I'm like, oh, cannabis, whatever, who cares. But what they don't explain to people is the list of crimes that California considers non violent, which includes rape of an unconscious person for sodomy, human trafficking, and stalking all crimes, which I consider to be violent. And so because of that, the four years, right, your eyes are bugging mine to four year sentence was, yeah, the four year sentence was automatically reduced to two was cut in half, right? It's already so hard to get. It's not that long. And then it was immediately cut in half, because it's prop 57. So he'd already served a year, right waiting for trial. So a year later, he gets out and is reoffending three days, three days, he goes to jail for two, two years for stalking me. One of the guards of the jail actually contacted me and told me he had been writing me letters the entire time. He just didn't have my address. So he was clearly fixated the whole time. And three days later, is making YouTube videos about me. And so yeah, I've had to put it in multiple times, since so this, people always say to me, I'm so sorry, that happened to you. That sounds terrible. I'm so glad it's over. I'm like, it's not over until one of us dies like this is not. It's not over.

Collier Landry 32:59

I think when I met you, we were talking about you use it, he kind of cycled through everybody. So one month he focused on somebody. So he was also continuing to to stalk these famous, these other famous women or higher profile women with a lot more affluence or, or, you know, could afford their own private security teams and things of that nature. So he was just kind of cycling through, then he come back to you and then he'd be obsessive. So was he focused on one particular individual at a time? And then you want to hear from him for like months on end? And then it'd be like, Oh, it's now my turn again. Is that how that worked? Or?

Lenora Claire 33:36

Yeah, it's a great question. Sometimes he would send emails where he like CC me with like, Kim Kardashian publicity team and about like, sometimes it was all of us because he was he'd be so angry at women in general, or it was me. He again, the nature of schism, says affective disorder, as he kind of cycles all through and same with his people, right? Like, there will definitely be times where I get a couple of weeks off, for sure. And then my detective always be like, Oh, it's over. I'm like, bro, it's not over. And then sure enough, like he would contact me like a couple days later. So yeah, he goes, he goes through cycles, but it's just kind of dormant. It's not gone. Yeah. Which is another thing I have to point out. So my stalker currently has an ankle monitor, which I guess it sounds good, but it's kind of pointless. It's pointless, because the Corrections Department only checks it like once a week, which doesn't do any good. So one of the things that I'm constantly advocating for and I'm trying to do is, I think I told you this idea for an ankle monitor app, we can we can use geofencing like, what if I had an app on my phone, and it would be kind of like, whatever my restraining order was, say 1000 feet and if he came within 1000 feet of me, I get an alert on my phone like

Collier Landry 34:47

yeah, 100% If you get if you can get alerts for COVID. I mean, that's a very interesting point because you then you have these, you know, violation of privacy rights and all these things that people can go up in arms about But I think with the with the effectiveness of the COVID monitoring situation, when you get these alerts, why wouldn't that work with this to this, this geofencing technology? I mean, that sounds like a very practical and completely reasonable request.

Lenora Claire 35:16

Yes. So part of what I do so I was appointed the Los Angeles District Attorney, they chose nine of us around the city, and I was chosen as the gender based violence advocate. So that's the kind of idea that I bring forward right here in Los Angeles. And it's my hope that we can do this and then bring it to other cities. So that's kind of, you know, a lot of my focus and then I got I'm laughing too, by the way, like, have you ever had anyone out? Talk to you? Is there ever been ever been this quiet before? I'm like, I've never seen

Collier Landry 35:44

no, that's okay.

Unknown Speaker 35:45

I've never anyway, back back to you.

Collier Landry 35:51

I love how you call me on that, too. That's fantastic. But no, I'm happy to. There's so many questions I have for you. And just I guess the first thing we touched upon a while ago was you were talking about the victim shaming. And sort of the the messages that you had received initially from other women and use a term I can't remember what it was but reverse misogyny maybe or something like that. Or internal internalized misogyny. Okay, internalized misogyny. What is that? Exactly?

Lenora Claire 36:30

Yeah, that's where you will woman internalizes misogyny. It's where there's a self hating woman, they hate other they hate other things about other women got it? They take out that right.

Collier Landry 36:40

So they, so then you so you got these messages from them, sort of saying what what did you deserved it or that you were asking for it? Or all of anything, anything we can imagine? And you were getting those over social media

Unknown Speaker 36:54

reading? Yep. It's like you're reading my tweets, everything you just said, yeah.

Collier Landry 37:00

Wow. And so that is obviously a part of because I've had you, I've heard you discuss this before, about, you know, reframing the narratives, when it comes to victims and getting away from the victim is something I talked about too. But it's, you know, I even have people say, Well, you know, your mother stayed with your father because she was a doctor, and he was rich. And I'm like, No, the mother stayed with my father because she had a son. And my mother is also the one that put him through medical school, and worked so he could go to medical school. And it wasn't like, she was just, you know, sit at home eating bonbons. You know, she was very proactive and ran his books and did and things like that. So, you know, that's an interesting, you know, it's always gross. And, and, you know, but if people are ignorant, I think, you know, and they literally are ignorant, because they just don't understand. So therefore, they jumped to conclusions. They make their own, it's something that makes them feel comfortable on what you know, and what they are able to rationalize in their head. And then, and then process themselves. Right. So, you know, we've we've discussed a little bit of that about that off, you know, outside of this podcast, but what are some of the things that you're, you know, I guess, you know, one of the things that you and I talk a lot about is is conscious, true crime. And, you know, obviously, I came into this, and I'm sort of still exploring this space, right with the podcast and talking to fellow survivors and true crime sort of celebrities like Chris Hanson. I guess for me, what, what are some of the ways that you're now being active in that space as well, to sort of reframe the narrative? Well,

Lenora Claire 38:44

I started a whole last company. It's called Lenore Claire consulting, which you're about to join. So we'll get your beautiful face up there, too. And so what I did was I kind of I call us the bad bitches of true crime, right. So there's a whole bunch of us like, like Tara Newell, and Amanda Knox and, you know, so one of the roles I don't know if you're familiar with an intimacy

Collier Landry 39:04

coordinator, Oh, yeah. And it's busy. Yes, absolutely. Yes, I

Lenora Claire 39:07

do. Yeah. Right. Yeah. So for listeners who may not know intimacy coordination, kind of sprung up after me too, when it was, you know, in like a love scene or a nude scene that is a person who's trained, and they're on set to make sure that the the actors are respected. No Boundaries are crossed, and everything's kosher. Right. And I was like, that's a really cool thing. But why is it that when you're a victim, you go on these shows, and there's nobody advocate, there's nobody looking out for you. It's oftentimes it's a producer who's like, manipulating you coercing you trying to get a sound bite at a church may not be authentic to to what you want. I mean,

Collier Landry 39:41

I mean, look, I've worked on reality TV, we do the same thing. I mean, it's not about someone's victimhood. It's like, well, we want you to say this about the pool that we just installed in your backyard and how you were just desiring to have this hot tub and you couldn't stop thinking about it's like, no, I didn't really care last my husband maybe you get the hot tub you didn't like Give it a try to get these sound bites. So I can imagine and I just know for myself, like when they're trying to draw something out of you, it's like, you know, I think that's where the difference is between myself and a lot of other victims who have been exploited by these programs or by these podcasts or, or shows us. I from very early on outside of Forensic Files, which they did the episode about my family. And I wish I refused to participate if they weren't, unless they were gonna pay me and I was like, 22 years old at the time, I was like, if you're not gonna pay me X amount of money, I'm not gonna come on the program. And I was able to actually framed my narrative and control my narrative. So they weren't doing things for shock value with me, let me ask you something that's really gonna put him back on his heels and give us the tears or whatever it is. i Everything was controlled by my side or my personal side of, you're not gonna you're not gonna get me to say anything that I already wouldn't tell you, you know, or you're not going to get me to say anything uncomfortable. And as I delve into this, you're doing this podcast, speaking to individuals, I have realized that they do do that they just try to manipulate that so rare. I'm so fortunate that that was that that was how that happened. You know, it was completely it was like a dumb, you know, I fell into it that way. Because I'm like, this is just what makes me feel comfortable. But there's other people that that don't have that luxury and they get exploited. And so I think what you're so you're trying to look out for these people. So anyways, continue, I'm sorry, I interrupted you, but Right, so

Lenora Claire 41:30

Well, that's okay. We're gonna we're gonna talk over each other a lot. So that's it's gonna happen. But um, you know, people, especially when they're fresh in their trauma, like the event just happened and they're shoving cameras in their face, they're still in a daze. They're not okay, they're not really there. It's really, they can't You can't give informed consent because you're not thinking clearly you're just you know, so all of that stuff happens. So yeah, so I created it originally thinking that the consulting company was just going to be me that's why it's not like an ego thing. Why chose the name, I literally just thought it was going to be me. And then very quickly, I started realize, Wow, this is much bigger than this. So I'm one of the things that we do is the victim survivor liaison where I can go on set and I can work with the victim survivor family, and be that liaison to production make sure everybody's boundaries are respected. And as there's that then we have the consultancy which everybody should take a look at that Linaro Claire consulting LLC website, like it's such an amazing I'm, I really just have such respect for all of you. I've got amazing forensic psychologists, prosecutors, homicide detectives, trans doe Task Force, a sex assault in the military expert, a sex assault on campus expert, right. So both scripted and unscripted, rather than just like fabricating the experience. Like if you're doing a film about what it's like to be a wrongful conviction story, you can actually hire Amanda Knox, and you can talk to her, you know, so we do that. And then the other the other problem I was seeing, and this again, is like the producer, and the casting part of my brain was I was watching these shows, and some of the experts were just like I say, experts, listen, we're just track people, and just terrible, terrible. And so like, I have these, like amazing experts. So it's like, I've done all the work for you producers, these are like, it's all one stop shop. So yeah, and then my main goal is to what I want for everybody is and I happen meeting with networks, because, you know, there's, there's a lot more to it. So I've been meeting with networks. And what I'm trying to do is get like retainer agreements where the network will have a look over their content, make mine again, I'm not trying to censor anybody, but make some mindful recommendations like, hey, this language is kind of offensive, you know, these photos, like it's like, way too much this family and it's kind of that kind of stuff. But also ultimately, I'm trying to bring apart the idea of things like aftercare. You know, the people don't realize this if you don't work in the industry, but shows like intervention, they used to give the addicts six months of therapy afterwards, which is incredible. That's a wonderful thing. So why are they doing that with with us, right? So I'm there like advocating because I'm really trying to change the standards and practices from from the inside, like at the network level and kind of trickle down. And on top of that even these true crime producers, like, Look, maybe you worked on jersey shore before you did this, you know, like you who's to say that you can be looking at these graphic homicide photos, maybe you need a little therapy too. So, you know, I'm really just trying to make it a better safer for everyone and traumatic place for all of us.

Collier Landry 44:23

You know, I realized that these production companies, you know, look, you and I share a very common thread, which we both worked in the industry for a very long time. And you were raised out here, you know, I've worked as a DPS photographer for almost 10 years, right. And my whole process was to getting involved in the business was to tell my story and my mother's story right, which I did with the murder of Mansfield, but the thing that is unique, you know, so we provide us a perspective on it. And you know, when COVID hit, those budgets increased by 30% Because you had to have COVID compliance officers you had to have all this this the zoning, the training that Testing, the testing day of the oldest stuff, and productions found a way to make it happen. They still do, right. And they found a way to dig into those budgets. So for them to add this as a line item for a line producer to bring in, and this might be Greek for a lot of people listening. But it is very easy to do this. And the effect is exponential, because you're looking out for the people that are involved, just like you are with COVID. And you're looking out for the people who you are putting at risk by opening up and telling their story, and sharing these intimate details. And you're probably going to get a lot better story out of them if they feel safe and protected. Because, you know, when when I speak to people just outside of the podcast, other victims, they come to me as much as they do to you because we've been there, we come from that background and they feel safe telling us things that they wouldn't tell anyone else. And if you can provide that safe space, you will get better content in the end. And that's what they have to realize, Oh

Lenora Claire 46:05

really, it's it's just like sex. When you have enthusiastic consent. You have better sex when the other person isn't just like reluctantly there when they want to be there. Sure. It's, you're exactly right. Call your and, you know, it's when you were talking about so line items are literally what sounds like it's like the itemized list of the cost of things. Right? So to me, it's like if you're profiting off of pain, and there isn't this sort of respect and consideration back then that is the definition of exploitation, isn't it? That's what these shows are. So to me, I'm trying to just like introduce the the concept around equity, like I always say, let the person have some say in their story, let, or if they're if the creators are getting more than the people who are sharing their trauma out of it. That's not right. No, I tell my story, I don't love telling my story. It's not fun, right? But I do it because I'm like, this is the platform that's going to help so it's worth it to me, but so it just it has to be worth it. And that can mean a lot of it, whatever the person's needs are, they deserve to have equity, they deserve that something equal in it. And it's not just the content creator, you know, making it making a shit ton of money. And then you leave the victim drained and upset and just their life is you know, because again, they don't realize little things like when you do a show, and then a year or two, three years later, it's on some other network buys or whatever and plays, and then all of a sudden, your inbox is full of all this shit. And you're like, a choice that made sense to me five years ago, maybe doesn't make sense to me now. And it's all so it's like, there's, there's a lot to it. And you just want to make sure that everybody feels as good as possible around it.

Collier Landry 47:45

I'll give you a perfect example of my story. I just received a message yesterday, from someone showing me a screenshot of a murderer in Mansfield on Hulu. And they were just and they're a friend, and they were sending it today as a supportive thing. And just thought you should know. And I'm like, Oh, wow, it's back on Hulu. Now, that was a production that I'm the co executive producer, the creator of right. And, you know, and I was, you know, it was it was not that idea approached me it was not the Barbara Kopple originally it was I approached all of them. And I said Barbara wants you to do this project. I said to my friend, John Morris, he wanted his project and then we went to Barbara and then you know, it's the Genesis started with me instead of reverse. And so I can't even imagine what it's like, oh, yeah, they're airing your story again. Oh, they're airing this and you're just like, Yeah, I got Yeah, they've just exploited me for the 100th time. You know, with myself as like, I know, I don't derive any profits from the show. And I didn't you know, I never did it for money. So I made the least out of anyone, which is I didn't do it for that. Right. I did it to tell the story. But, you know, I can only imagine when these things just keep playing and playing. It's like Oh, you're back on TV call you they're talking about your dad killing your mom. If I wasn't in control of that some way like and it floods my inbox will flood with people saying hey, just saw you on Hulu. Hey, just it's constant. I mean, for me, I'm with the podcast. I'm out there on tick tock. I've you know ever expanding tick tock after going viral there after a couple months ago, you know, and I'm on social media actively doing all of this, but I feel like if I wasn't it would just be like, Oh God, here it is resurfacing again. Here it is resurfacing again. And that is something that I think people that consume True Crime really need to understand is that yeah, this is a your favorite case. So this is your favorite episode. But this is somebody's nightmare. This is somebody's horror. You know, there's there's this podcast called My favorite murder. And it's like, you know what, my favorite murder is the one that doesn't happen, the one that stopped, that's my favorite murder. You know, it's not like let's talk about these things and let's exploit them and, you know, these companies make an ungodly amount of money and it's, it's time in my mind and I think in yours to really start examining how they treat the victims and the survivors that give them the content that makes them Money in the first place. You know,

Lenora Claire 50:02

that's exactly it. I said, you know, especially post Me too, I felt like the next sort of movement would be the victim rights movement, right? And all the ways from, like Marcy's Law, which I don't know if people know what Marcy's Law is, it's I forget how many states it's in. But it's the victim, like, how we're notified and a lot of a lot of stuff like that. But, but as far as this content creation, just the fact like there's this really bizarre disconnect, like I saw something in the crime crime con Facebook group where like, this woman was advertising, you get a massage, and you listen to True Crime murder story and how relaxing it is. And I was like, how relaxing it i, i Okay, you know, I try not to judge other people's stuff. But like, I just again, I'm not shitting on people because I consumed true crime. Before I was a true crime story. I understand the fascination. Yes, there's some people who are trauma tourists. And there's other people that want to know the red flags, they want to be better educated, they may have been touched by crime themselves. I again, not a problem with people consuming it. I just, it's the disconnect. These are not stories. These are real people's lie, you know. And so I find it really distasteful, like some of these conventions when they do like the blood splatter nails. And like all that shit. It's like, that's all you got. All I got to say to somebody is, take whoever you love the most in this world, who could be yourself if you don't love anybody else, but hopefully you love somebody. And imagine the most horrific crime happen to them. Do you think this shit should be like, Do you know what I mean? Like, just think of that when you're when you're consuming this stuff, if it was about your loved one, and if they were treated with the respect that you'd want them to have? Well,

Collier Landry 51:41

there's a great, you know, and you're absolutely right. And when I talk to people, and they're, they're like, Well, I know everything I said, so if you ever seen John Wick, like you remember the part, the beginning Oh, I can't watch that. I can't watch when they kill the dog. And I'm like, exactly, that's a dog. Now try to take that, put that as a person that you can't watch it or listen to that. Think about that. If that's your loved one. That's right, you know, and then they're and then it hits them. They go, Oh, whoa, you're totally right. And I'm not excoriating them? Or are you saying, Look, you know, don't don't do this. It's just consume it in a way that is that you're conscious of who these people are. And you know, I have people that reach out to me that listened to other True Crime podcasts, right? Or they've discovered me on a true pride product cast, they're like, you know, you're really doing some great things with talking about this. But I never really thought about when I'm consuming these, who the victims are. And thank you for talking about these things, interviewing people like yourself, and Tara Newell, and bringing bringing the stories to light it like, you know, it's okay, we don't mind that you do this, but also understand that we're human beings, and that this was our suffering that you're listening to be, yeah, be aware of that. And they're just like, wow, I really want to, and there is a general, there's a general consensus from people that reach out to me that say, you know, we want to be better consumers. Yes, just like, you know, I made sure I will spend more money on environmentally sound products, not because I make more money, but because I want a better environment. So I don't mind getting something because I know that what I'm doing is better for the planet, than just buying something that is cheap, that is going to destroy our water system, or water supplies, or the oceans or wherever, right? And people will do that with true crime, they just have to be made aware. And I think that people, individuals, like yourself, like myself, like others that are really doing that is helping to raise that awareness. It's very cool. So I commend you for all the work you're

Lenora Claire 53:40

Yeah. And I, everything you said really resonates with me. And again, it's just like, just make sure it's for it has meaning behind it, right. And so kind of what I want to do with the company is, it's just like when you see like, you know, these eggs are cruelty free, and you go like, I'm gonna choose a cruelty free eggs, right? I want to do that with our company. And this sort of branding is like, if we get behind this podcast, this is Movie the show, whatever, is saying that as survivors like we're cool with the way that this was made. Everybody was treated properly. It's I don't know if your listeners are familiar, but porn has a movement right now as well as ethical porn, right? And it's for people who want to consume that. And I just think that's great. And I just I think it we really can't drive that point home hard enough about how important is because you've already been harmed by nature of why you're telling your story. Let's let let's not do like an additional layer of harm and trauma. You've already been through enough already. Well, you

Collier Landry 54:36

have a you have disclosures at the end of films where it says, you know, the SPCA will say, you know, no animals were harmed on this project. Yeah. Why can't you do that with people?

Lenora Claire 54:46

Well, that's what that's what we're trying to do with the company. So I've been, I have a couple of very exciting meetings coming up. And so hopefully, you know, again, it's a really weird thing to like, create a business that didn't exist before, and to be calling out people for things that they've done, but Um, people have been very cool. And there's some major things coming up. So hopefully hopefully you get to see that sticker. Yeah.

Collier Landry 55:08

So Laura, where can we? Where can we find you on? On the interwebs?

Lenora Claire 55:15

Yeah, so pretty much well, my Twitter got hacked so I'm mostly active on Instagram, Facebook. You know, I might, I haven't done tick tock because I said, I don't know if tick internet deserves me if they're gonna act right. But I know you've done so well on tick tock. So, if people want to see me do a tick tock, they can just write on my Instagram and maybe I'll make it tick tock. I don't know. Maybe only only because you're so good at it. I'm like, maybe maybe I'll take

Collier Landry 55:42

a look at it. Oh, thanks. But yeah, so. So what are your handles? What are where we find you?

Lenora Claire 55:46

It's just at Lenore. Claire. Yeah. And mostly find me on Instagram. I answer everybody.

Collier Landry 55:53

Fantastic. Lenore, Claire, thank you so much for joining the program. It's been a privilege to talk to you and to hear your story and, and hear all the work you're doing. And I hope you come back. I'd love to have you again.

Lenora Claire 56:04

Yeah, anytime we're really friends. So you can call me anytime?

Collier Landry 56:08

We're real life friends. Yes. This is very. Oh, really fast. Most important thing of the entire thing for those that are watching the video. Where is nobody?

Lenora Claire 56:19

Oh, no, let me grab her. Sorry. No, me is always right by me. She was sleeping. Or she'll come say hi. It's right here.

Collier Landry 56:32

For those of you that are that are listening. Nomi is a mid Penn boy who has taken over one of the Nora's husbands to or to for her outfits. So let's see her. Oh, no, me.

Lenora Claire 56:53

Yeah, I mean, my husband knows who he married like he wears a Baby Bjorn and carries around. He knows he knows what he signed up for. The long legs, the long legs like new ones showgirl. Usually she has wigs on we should have dressed up for you.

Collier Landry 57:09

Ah, well, you know what, that have to be another episode for sure. Yeah. Anytime. All right. Thank you so much, Laura. I really appreciate it. Yeah, thank you. So every time I talked to Lenore and I talked to her a lot. I'm just sort of dumbfounded. I'm amazed at what she does for people. I'm amazed at how she handles with such grace and poise and sense of humor, how she deals with her situation and how she deals with helping other victims and being a light in their sort of solar system to really help guide them and saying, Look, you know, I'm here and I'm here to help you. I'm here to make a difference and an impact on the world and to help you do the same and to look out for you because a lot of times these people and and this is something that I'm, as I've said on the program many times, having gotten into doing this podcast, having gotten into this world of true crime where I have seen other victims and other survivors have their stories exploited by other podcasts by news organizations by television series that make boatloads of money off of these victims laying their souls bare and you know, their worst you know, somebody's True Crime fantasy podcast or, or true crime story that they obsess over is someone's worst day of their life. I mean, literally, I've been very fortunate because I have always taken control of my story. And they obviously made the film of murder Mansfield with two time Oscar winner Barbra Kapil John Morrissey, my friend who made American History X little plug there, but I got to make it with really cool people that I wanted to make my story with. And I was able, I was the driving force for that, you know, I found everybody I put everybody together, but not everyone is that fortunate. And so to have someone like Leonora looking out for these victims, these survivors is a really cool thing and I'm just grateful to have known her I'm honored to know her and and to get to know her in the work that she's doing that she continues to do and that she will do in the future. She's an amazing human being and having her on the program was a real honor. So I just want to say that shout out to Lenora Claire. You're You are awesome. You're fantastic. You're doing such great work. So but you know what, always doesn't matter what I think it matters what you guys think you guys are the audience. I am here bringing you guys guests that I feel inspired and motivating. And you know, it doesn't always have to be about you know, sad things and true crime but it also can be about the moving past all of this, which is what this program is about dealing with your trauma, embracing this and doing something positive with your life. But again, it's not what I think it's what you guys think so I love hearing your listener feedback.

Contact me on Instagram, Twitter, it's at Collier. Landry Facebook, you find me on Tiktok at Collier, Landry, you're going to my website call your landrieu.com if you are watching this that means you're watching this on my YouTube channel which is youtube.com forward slash Collier, Landry. Thank you all for tuning in thank you for sharing the podcast with everyone and anyone who can your positive reviews and even your slightly negative reviews are all greatly appreciated and I tried to read every piece of email and direct message that I get from you guys I really do and I try to respond as much as I can. So I thank you for that. Please keep it up. I love hearing from you guys. So anyways, you guys have a great week.

I'm Collier Landry, and this is Moving Past Murder. Thanks y'all.

Episode Outro:

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