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Dirty John's Debra Newell: How Psychopath’s Lure their Victims

Debra Newell is best known for being “Dirty John’s” last wife before his death. Connie Britton played Debra’s character in the TV scripted series that appeared on Bravo and now is streaming on Netflix. The show originates from the Dirty John Podcast with over 50 million listens. Debra Newell is also a world-renowned interior designer with mentions in Forbes. She is the Founder and President of Ambrosia Home, Inc. as well as the founder and former President of the multimillion-dollar company, Ambrosia Interior Design, Inc.

Debra Newell is the author of the newly released book: Surviving Dirty John with hopes that the book will spread awareness for coercive control, along with showing you a deep dive as to why she got involved with a psychopath.

Debra Newell has appeared on Dateline NBC, Dr. Phil, Dr. Oz, Megan Kelly Today, Inside Evil with Chris Cuomo, Oxygen’s Dirty John: The Dirty Truth amongst many other media outlets.

  • Few people know how psychopaths target women better than Debra Newell. She explains how Dirty John Meehan wormed his way into her life, and then tried to turn her against her own family.

  • “Trauma bonding” and “Love Bombing,” are two things that both Debra’s deadly ex-husband and Collier’s father have in common.

  • After surviving her psychopathic ex-husband, John Meehan, Debra learns about how Collier as a child survived the trauma of witnessing his father kill his mother.

  • How can a mother testify in support of her daughter’s killer? Debra explains how after her sister was murdered at the hands of her husband, her mom, during the court trial, took the stand in defense of the husband.

  • Debra became famous for the relationship that nearly killed her, but she was nearly involved in another high-profile relationship. Debra tells us about the time O.J. Simpson asked out on a date.

Important Links:

Debra Newell’s Instagram @debraambrosenewell

Debra Newell’s Book: Surviving Dirty John Website:

Debra’s Home Store Website:

Ambrosia Home | Home Furniture and Décor in Henderson, NV

Full Transcription:

Debra Newell 00:03

It's called pretty much trauma bonding and you don't realize it. So the one thing that Princess John or any other psychopath sociopath narcissist does, is it's called love bombing. So what they're doing is they're telling you everything that you want to hear. And they've studied you to some degree. They're listening to your words and what's going to turn you on what's going to make you fall in love with them. They are literally trying to figure out how to manipulate you. For whatever reason, sometimes it's about money sometimes. Yeah, well, it's always about power.

Intro Stinger 00:52

Testimony continued today in the most notorious criminal trial in Richland County history. Dr. John Boyle is accused of killing his wife, Noreen, and burying her body in the basement of his new home in Erie, Pennsylvania. The 12-year-old son finally took the stand. I heard a scream, I heard a thud. It was about this loud. We the jury find the defendant guilty.

Collier Landry 01:12

When I was twelve years old, my testimony sent my father to prison for murdering my mother. This podcast serves as a type of therapy and reconciliation for myself, and it is my hope that it helps anyone who has experienced deception, betrayal, and dark trauma. I’m Collier Landry, and this is Moving Past Murder.

Hey, movers what's going on? Welcome back to another episode of moving past murder. I'm your host Collier, Landry. Thank you guys so much for supporting. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much for supporting the program for listening. I know that a lot of people have been coming to the program because you've seen me on tick tock tick tock channel which is at call your Landry. And for those of you that are supporting via Patreon or you find me on YouTube, or you're downloading this on Apple podcast, Spotify, Stitcher, Google podcasts, wherever, thank you so much. I really appreciate your support in helping to blow up this program. Because guess what, I really love doing this. And it's, it's really cool to be able to share my experiences. I know that some of them are really rough. And you know, I haven't had the easiest life. But I also have a really great and amazing life. And you guys make me stronger. And your support is just really awesome when you guys DM me and find me on socials and reach out. I love it. It makes my day. And I just came back from crime con as I told you guys last week, which was really interesting to me, because I had never been to crime con before. in beautiful sunny Las Vegas, but I came back with like a cough sort of thing going on factor my asthma, I think it was the stale or it's not COVID. In fact, for those of you watching lame COVID Negative, here's my negative COVID test because I was like, oh, did I get COVID at crime con, I did not get COVID at crime con. But I came back with a little bit of something making my asthma is probably the smoke and the casinos I don't really big on cigarette smoke. So that's probably what it was. But anyways, it was a fantastic time, it was cool to learn about True Crime fans, because I'm really curious about all of you guys, and what makes you interested in true crime so much that I keep interviewing people in this program, asking them and I'm got some great interviews, coming up with some amazing podcast hosts that have some amazing True Crime podcasts that are gonna join the program. And it's really cool. So look for those in the weeks and months ahead. There's gonna be a lot of that cool stuff happening. I want to read out my listener shout out of the week, my first Tiktok person, this is PJ 72. And he says, as they say, I don't know if it's a heat. Who knows this person, PJ 72 says, As a person who is obsessed with true crime, I apologize. The reality is we love to see justice, not pain and suffering. That is a really great point. And I think that that was one of the things that I learned about at crime con is, you know, I kind of came into it with this sort of, like, I guess a bias. That's an honest thing. I was biased, I would I am a true crime survivor. I am a victim who was victimized by a perpetrator. And I kind of came into this like, why are people so obsessed with true crime, but I got to know a lot of you fans and a lot of my colleagues in the true crime space. And I realized that like a lot of it is like people want to see justice. They want to see they want to learn from our experiences, which I'm so happy to share my experiences with you guys because it makes it all worth it for me to be able to share that you guys learn from my stories and my personal, you know, pain and suffering or whatever. But I understand that, you know, not only when peace J comments but when you guys reach out to me and that you are inspired by the stories that you just want to see justice you want to see justice you want to see the bad guys go to jail like we all do, and the peep the good people prevail and we want to hopefully prevent these things in the future. Things like domestic violence, for example, which is so prevalent and and rampant not only in this country, but across the world. And my guest today is probably most famous for being a victim of domestic violence, coercive control, domestic spousal abuse, Baba just had a really horrible time with a psychopath. Now we have had her daughter on the program, I am talking about Deborah Newell, who is known to you guys and most of the world through the dirty John series, which was first a podcast on wondery in the LA Times and then became a hit television show, starring Eric Bana as John Meaghan and Connie Britton as Deborah Newell, which is kind of cool because if I was a woman, I would love to be played by Connie Britton, because I love Connie Britton. I was really a huge fan of Nashville. I watched Friday Night Lights. Are those cool and Eric Bana was the Hulk so let's just keep it real. That's super dope as well. And Julia Carter played Tara's character Eternals character anyways, I'm not here to regurgitate television history. But what I am here to talk about is my amazing guest today is Deborah Newell. She was a victim I said, of coercive control, and of domestic abuse, domestic violence about at the hands of John Meaghan who was a psychopath. And as we know how the story turned out. Unfortunately, her daughter took his life because he came at her with the intention of taking her life and she acted in self defense. Like I said, we've had Tara on the program before and at the end of this episode, you're going to have both of them together talking about their story. So that poses the question like, What would you do when you're in this coercive sort of this coercive control relationship, and Deborah share some really amazing insight into how she handled, how she handled it, how she survived, how she came through it, and how she has moved past that trauma in her life, and also how she continues to deal with it. She also talks about some things because obviously, when your life becomes a television series, it's very successful. There is a lot of judgment that comes along with the person who like herself. And there's a lot of victim shaming that happens. There's a lot of scapegoating. And there's a lot of people saying, well, why did you stay in their relationship? I had the same thing with people that reached out to me about my mother, like, Oh, your mother stayed in her marriage, because your father was a doctor, and he had money? No, that's not really the thing, because my mother put my father through medical school. And it wasn't a it wasn't a money thing. It was most likely. What it is, is when you are in these, and you can only really understand these when you're in these abusive relationships, because I think it's very easy. And there happens to be a very famous trial that's going on right now a defamation trial between Amber herd and Johnny Depp. And at the core of that trial is domestic abuse and domestic violence, which is unfortunate, and it's this massively exposed dirty laundry of these people's lives that I don't really care a lot about. I want to see good people do good things and whatever I just, it's a mess. It's a mess. There's no other way to describe it. It's a tabloid it's a soap opera print playing out right before us in the courtroom. I think they're on their fourth week or something absurd like that. But at the core of this is domestic violence, domestic abuse, coercive control, manipulation, psychopathy, sociopathy, these are all things that I talked about with my father, who exerted a lot of control over my mother, he was a narcissist, a sociopath. And, you know, it's easier, it's easier said than done to be in those relationships to be wrapped up in them, and then have people go, Oh, well, you should have gotten out of that. It's not that easy, especially when your lives are so intertwined. And you have children involved, or you have a marriage, or you have a business that you run that somebody could take away from you because they've married you for nefarious reasons. So those are all things that we're going to talk about with Deborah today's episode. So without Without further ado, I don't know whatever it is, I am very pleased to welcome to the program, Deborah Newell. So, Deborah,

Debra Newell 09:27


Collier Landry 09:29

All right. How are you?

Debra Newell 09:30

I'm great. I'm happy to be on here.

Collier Landry 09:35

Y'all. I'm happy to have you and I don't know how much you know about my story.

Debra Newell 09:39

I don't know a lot about it. But I was hearing the tail end of about your mom and dad.

Collier Landry 09:47

Yeah. So when I was Dad was a doctor. Yeah, my dad was a was a real doctor. Yeah, my my father when I was 11 years old. murdered my mother. And wow, I You heard it happen. It was on New Year's Eve 1989. And no one believed me except for one detective, it was treated as a missing persons case. And between this detective and I, over the course of 25 days, we basically solved and found out where my mother's body was, he had buried her in a house that he bought with his mistress in another state. Oh my gosh. And I found this picture of this house because I was meeting with the investigator because my father, essentially on New Year's Eve, 1989, I heard these thoughts. I heard the scream. I woke up the next morning, ran into my mother's bedroom was like looking for blood on the sheets, came down in front of my father, who's also today was actually also John. He, what is it with these John's right? Oh, no, John J. John, me and John Boyle, John Doe. They're all just they're all these massive reputations, right? But I said, I said, Where's my mother? And he goes, Well, Mommy took a little vacation Collier. And that's what happened. And it ended up being, you know, I call my mother's friend they sent to uniform black and white officers out back out of the house, and then they treat it as a missing persons case. Wow, by the grace of God, this detective happened to see it because it was New Years. 1999 It was January 1 1990. He saw this come through Ross destice missing persons case, the doctor's wife to severe. Let me just say I don't have a lot go to go check this out, came to the house, I was able to pull him aside because my father wasn't home. And I said, I don't care what anybody says. My father murdered my mother, my mother's my mother's dead. She's not coming back. She didn't they didn't get to a fight. There's none of this. And I grew up in a very small town in Ohio. And because my father was a doctor, people like that don't get investigated, hit. In fact, his captain, his captain was very much like, what do you do? Like, what are you doing? She read, they got into a fight. She ran away. And he's like, there's something about this kid. And I was relentless. And I would call him come to the school while I was in school, and meet with me and always until like, update me on the case, I'd be like, Okay, I'm gonna go home. And while he's not there, I'm gonna pull the bookshelf out and look for her body or look for her purse. And one day, he went into the gas station, and I opened up the little cubby hole in his truck while he was inside, I could see him and I found a picture of a house a Polaroid. And then I found another Polaroid of his of his girlfriend with her two kids in front of a fireplace wrapped in plastic. I told the police about it. That's how they found the house, which was in another state of Pennsylvania.

Debra Newell 12:43

Evidence it's their trophy. Yeah,

Collier Landry 12:46

yes. And then that's how I that's that's how they caught him. And they found my mother's body buried beneath the basement floor. Oh my gosh, 25 days later, it was pretty crazy. So I was, you know,

Debra Newell 12:59

how old were you? 11.

Collier Landry 13:01

I was 11. And then I was 12 when I went to trial, so I testified against the grand jury against my father to Grand Jury the indicted him for murder, because it was premeditated because he planned everything like months in advance. He bought the house. He wanted to lower the floor. It was literally the largest law at that time, the largest murder trial on Highland Street. And it, it rocked my whole community. And I was cheering with Tara. You know, I come from the small town in Mansfield, Ohio. And even though you guys are in Southern California glamor, Southern California, I lived in Orange County for a while. It is a very small tight-knit community. It is like a small town.

Debra Newell 13:34

Yeah. Lots of guys. Yes. Everyone knows each other for the most part. Yeah. Yeah.

Collier Landry 13:40

I have a lot of friends that live in like Dana Point, Newport Beach, Irvine. Though, you know, I know how that community is. And so yeah, it I ended up testing, testifying at trial for two and a half days and be still incarcerated to this day. And one of the things I don't

Debra Newell 13:59

get for that, I'm really happy for that, at least.

Collier Landry 14:02

Yeah, one of the things that I was that I was discussing with Tara is on this on this show. I have his letters over the last 30 years. And he's written to me from when he was first incarcerated. And I read these letters for the audience. And there's so much that they can glean from this with the manipulation, the gas, oh, 100%, all of these things. And, you know, when I think about things like coercive control, which is what you had, I know that, you know, I came into knowing about the story through the television show, only because I had friends at work. I'm a DP. I had friends that worked on the show, and they were telling me about I didn't know what it was about podcast, I didn't know. And then I did a deeper dive. This was just a couple of years ago and then I was like, Oh, this is a personal podcast. Oh, the LA Times story, this, that and the other right. I was like, Oh, this happened in my backyard. I didn't even know Oh, and it's it's I can't I couldn't help but when I was see it and I was a big national fan, so we started coming to Britain. So first I turned tuned in just for that. But I, you know, I couldn't help but thinking a couple of things and I was broaching this with Tyra. Okay. One is where I knew where it happened and the small town vibe. And I know that people out here, especially in that community are very judgmental, and very good. It's very good at passing judgment on others. And and oh, yeah, victim shaming and blaming. Right. Right, you know. And so, I think with yourself, and this is what I want to ask you is, for me, you know, my father is very good at victim shaming me. So there are letters. And even as I had a stalker, and even as

Debra Newell 15:56

you're the one that caught them, you're the one that saw through them.

Collier Landry 15:59

Yeah. And, and he would have gotten away with it. Because there are a statistic, I believe in 2020 was something like 45% of murders in the United States go unsolved, right? And then you have this, you have this. With domestic violence with things like this, they just the cops just want to wash their hands. I mean, look at the case of Robert Durst, right? Oh, yeah, it was, you know, his wife disappeared in 1982, or something, or even for up until he died of COVID, a couple of months ago, he was set to go on trial for that, finally, to face those charges, because she was just, she just disappeared. And it's a missing persons case. And that's where these things go. And one of the things that I think that and I know that you guys win, when there are a lot of people that benefited from your story. But one of the things that I really gravitate towards is the fact that you guys openly and honestly, wanted to tell the story to have the social impact and to raise awareness for these types of things. Much like I did with with my film, because I made this into a documentary. It's on investigation, discovery. And it's like, people are like, Oh, you made all this money. I was like, I was the person who got paid the least that's my story. And I produced it, I put everything together. But the but I didn't do it for that. I did it because I didn't want my mothers. This was my mother's legacy. This is my mother's story. And I wanted, I didn't want her to her death to be in vain. But it was also my whole reason why I came to Los Angeles, California, is I wanted to do something with the story. And I wanted that voice to be heard. I wanted to impact people's lives and impact change, and heal myself at the same time. And I feel like you guys did that exact same thing.

Debra Newell 17:46

But I think that's what you have to do with it. Yes, you know,

Collier Landry 17:50

you because that's how you process the trauma. Right. Right. Right. Yeah. I mean, I think that you, you know, you, this is part of our process. And for me as an artist, it's a creative thing, right? For you as a victim that had just this. I mean, let's forget about what happened with the drama with your daughter, Tara. Right. And then coming to that confrontation, which was unfortunate for everyone, right? Oh, yeah. Just the fact that you had somebody like this in your life, that was, you know, enacting this coercive control, and I'll be honest, like, I don't have exactly the best, the best of luck with data gaps myself. No way.

Debra Newell 18:41

Are you single Are you married?

Collier Landry 18:43

I am saying I am very much single. Okay, okay. But I but you know, making a joke, but the the, you know, you meet somebody, and you share your world with them. And I have dated someone who is a narcissist and a sociopath and when I don't say she's a sociopath, but she was a narcissist, for sure. What

Debra Newell 19:02

did you figure that out? At first? Oh, no, no, no, no, exactly. Because there are so good. Yeah. They're so

Collier Landry 19:09

good. And then it's and then one of the things I was explaining to my producer yesterday, is they you don't see these things. And and then people Oh, why didn't she see it? It's so easy for people to be the Monday morning quarterback in the

Debra Newell 19:28

Oh, it's great site. I mean, obviously, but they don't they're not in it, the ones that are in it, get it or that have been there. It's it's, that's what it is, until you've experienced it. You can sit on the sidelines and judge it

Collier Landry 19:45

all they want. And so why don't you as somebody who experienced this, just this coercive control specifically because I feel this is something that is so insidious. And like I said, when I read these letters from my father means the audience really, they just like to thank you for reading this, I can see this in my own life, I see the way my father treated me, or my mother or my spouse, or my boyfriend or the this person, this, you know, ominous figure that has this control over them don't realize it's happening. And then when they break away from it, and they realize this is happening. This is when they go full on scorched earth. They're the they're the victim, and they come after you. Why don't you share with me? Because this is so important. I feel for everyone to know, why don't why don't you share for me what that's like, and what that looks like?

Debra Newell 20:38

Well, it's called pretty much trauma bonding, and you don't realize it. So the one thing that for instance, John, or any other psychopath, sociopath narcissist does, is it's called love bombing. So what they're doing is they're telling you everything that you want to hear. And they've studied you to some degree, they're listening to your words, and what's going to turn you on what's going to make you fall in love with them. And so, what John did, was he listening quite well, the first date, and I'm thinking, well, he's a good listener. And pretty soon, he's telling me how beautiful I am. Or I'm an animal lover. Oh, I have I had dogs. They were the, you know, so important to me. Or he has kids, daughters, and so he would talk about his daughters or the church that we both went to the same church. So everything was like, oh, okay, he's checking off that box. He checks off that box. And then he's funny. I love funny. I love intelligence. So all these things were, you know, checking off the box of a guy that looks like a great guy. And so that first date, obviously didn't end well. But again, he knew how to get back in. And I'm a very forgiving, probably too much of a pure heart where I forgive, move on. And, you know, it's okay. So what happened was when he he pushed to the limit to the limit, and then anyway, came back in the next day saying all the right things. So love bombing takes place. And then pretty soon, they're doing all these things for you. So there's a little bit of a, wow, this guy, you know, is going to the grocery store. I'm a busy woman bringing me flowers, going for walks, giving me massages. I mean, he's doing everything, but how can you not fall in love with this person? So, so they're continuing this, but so it's a dependence almost to wow, this is so great. How can I not, you know, want to be with the sky. And then then they start the gaslighting where I'm not one to confront or to fight. But he would start saying, Oh, your kids. They're using you for your money. So he would turn things around and make you second guess yourself. Thank you. Wait, how can I know I have a great relationship relationship with my kids. I don't know what you're talking about. And say, No, they did this. They did that you need to have boundaries. Then it goes into isolation. Pretty soon he's saying, Okay, I don't like that friend, or I don't like what she did. Or, honey, when are you going to be home? I miss you so much. And you're like, oh, okay, I'll hurry home. And I'm a pleaser. So a lot of this, I don't know if they see into this personality type. Or if it was just if it was the perfect storm, you know, as far as Jon's personality and my personality, but, I mean, everything they do, they're making love to you several times a day, they're, you know, kissing every interview. So I mean, everything makes you just feel wonderful. But again, I'm a smart woman. I ran a fairly large design company. And one thing that somebody told me when time is you, you go to work every day, you're focused on your work, you come home and then you enjoy your personal life, whatever that may be. That when somebody is a sociopath or psychopath which John ended up being a psychopath They're studying you. They're trying to figure out their next move. But it's it. So the words that are coming out of their mouths is something where they are literally trying to figure out how to manipulate you. For whatever reason, sometimes it's about money sometimes. Well, it's always about power.

Collier Landry 25:26

It's always about power. Exactly. Yeah. It's

Debra Newell 25:27

always about power.

Collier Landry 25:30

Thank you, essentially, you said money. Because obviously, you had you had some right. And I think that people naturally go to that, oh, he wanted your money. Oh, he want this. It's not quite that simple. Like people's motives. Like it's very, it's very easy to do this dismisses Oh, that person does for money that some people just want to just want that control that power. And one of the things I remember on the podcast, somebody said, something I want to say was a prosecutor or somebody, you know, was was discussing John's type of person that John is, right, as some people are just born evil. And that was one of the things that I realized doing pre production for my film and murder in Mansfield. And I was looking for these, I was looking for these reasons of like, I thought my father because he had molested my two cousins on my mother's side, about two years before he was arrested, which is why my mother's side of the family abandoned me they couldn't deal with these, it looks like my father, my father's side of the family abandoned because I was testifying and I'm the one that brought all this out, even though my father murdered my mother, that was not a big deal to them as it was me going against the family, if you will. So I think that, you know, and I still don't have relationships to this day with these people, by the way. These are like my godparents, and I come from a Catholic home and they just, they just were like, whatever. And no, it's okay. It is it's my reality. Right. But I think that but that's also the destructive nature of what happens when these things occur. Oh, yeah. Oh, and I was looking for this, this sort of, you know, because my grandfather, my father was an alcoholic. So I thought he was he an abusive alcoholic? He did this and I couldn't find it. No, he was a happy binge drinking drunk. And I was like, Oh, I was like, I was the same way. When I drank, you know, I was like, very happy and just like, good. I'm Guy. You know, I wasn't, I think getting fights I didn't get, you know, there was nothing like that. Right. Right. So I, I was like, trying to find these reasons. And I realized when I was sitting across from my father in the film, and I was asking, I was trying to find this reason, like, my whole my whole reason for doing the film. My whole reason for coming to Hollywood was to tell this story, but also to like, heal myself, and find out like, why did he Why would you murder my mother? What did you stand to gain from any of this?

Debra Newell 27:48

Here's the problem, though. He doesn't have a mind a normal mind.

Collier Landry 27:53

No, no, exactly. So there's not going to be logic. There's no logic and the motive is yes, control and things of that nature now, and you can tell me this is a sensitive subject, but you had a sister, an older sister? Yeah. Cindy? Yes. Do you? Are you comfortable talking about that? Of course. Okay. So Cindy, I believe was also involved with someone who was a psychopath. Yes. And I believe if I'm not mistaken, your mother had testified at trial?

Debra Newell 28:29

Well, okay. She testified because, first of all, we had no idea what was happening behind closed doors. And back in those days, you don't talk about it. Of course, clearly, we now talk about it. And it's, it's great. You know, that the me to movement and everything else. We're sitting there really discussing about what happens and you know, the impact. Yeah. Anyway. So Cindy was married to a man that acted, you know, he was charming. He was he acted in doted all over my sister. So my mom was only seen this great guy. She wasn't seen what was happening behind closed doors. And so when she testified, she testified about Billy being a good dad, good husband, supposedly a good person, because that's what she saw. It wasn't that she was dismissing that her daughter had been murdered. She because that she still has cried about that. You know, missing her daughter. That's her daughter. So I don't think that they look at the whole picture. When they talk about this, she defended him. There's a lot more to it. Sure. So

Collier Landry 30:02

I think it's and and I'll go one step further, I think it's a testimony really, to how good these people are. How much of a master manipulators, they are to the point that your mother testifies on his behalf at a trial of the murder of her, somebody who murdered her own daughter. Right. And I think that like when, you know, I think about that, it gives me chills. And I can see again, you know, there's this, there is this fear, people are very quick to rush to judgment, and very quick to victim shame are very this. And my victim shaming came in the form of my father who has sent me these letters shaming me. Even as recently as last year 2021, I had a stalker, and the stalker reached out to him in prison. And he said, Oh, call yours exploiting his trauma and victim. You know, he's he's a trauma victim of his own thing. This is my father who murdered my mother when I was 11 years old. And all this he still holds his animosity, this anger towards me for going to prison for something that he did. And I was reading a letter on the one of the previous episodes that I recorded. We to come to when this one comes out, it'll be a previous episode that I recorded last night, was going through his letter he sent me, you know, four years after he was in prison. And basically doing this whole like you said, love bombing, right? So he's talking about like, he's saying, Oh, you're so handsome. You're such a, your mother would be so proud of you. I'm so proud of you, oh, you're going to homecoming with this girl. You'll have many relate like being this father. And then he slowly over the course of like three or three, turns it to how how I need to watch out for myself. And then he they build this narrative. They construct this? Oh, yeah. How he's innocent of the crime, how I shouldn't be ashamed, because he didn't do anything wrong. And just all these things and how I need to be diligent and how there's all these clues. And these attorneys he's working with that. He was, you know, falsified. I mean, all this is absolute sheer lunacy that these people do. And there's so there's so good at it there. Yeah, and then people don't under you do you do not understand? Because I'm sure that they were like, Oh, yeah. Oh, well, yes, you were you were wealthy in Orange County. And you would just want it man, and you want it and this and that. And it's like, no, I was a very intelligent woman who built my own business, and had my own life and have my own children. And I'm not I'm not some dummy that was desperate for a man. No, I was. I was somebody who, who was preyed upon. And and it's, and I think that one of the wonderful you mentioned to me to move into things like that is, and one of the things I feel good about this program about what we're doing, what you guys are doing, is the more we discuss this, the more awareness we create. Yes, so people can recognize these behaviors, so they don't become like that. 100%. Back to Cindy. Are there moments that you have when you reflect back or or even in the moment of when all this had come unraveled with John Right, right, that you said, Oh, my God, this is what happened to my did you have that complete moment of just oh my gosh, my sister went through?

Debra Newell 33:11

Oh, 100%. First of all, going back, I was unsettled with a whole thing of him getting out of prison and three and a half years. And I decided to go investigate the case. I called obviously, certain witnesses, the attorneys involved, so on, and I found out that he had premeditated the murder. And I found out there was abuse. So many things. And it just happened to be when I was going to come forward with it all. The OJ thing happened. And I had been asked out by OJ Yeah. And my sister at the time was dating Marcus Allen. And they, the minute my sister was running backs. Yeah, I guess Oh. But what happened was, I was on a show on TV, talking about my sister's murder, but I wasn't allowed to really talk about OJ or talk about Marcus Allen. But that's when I realized he had completely 100% use coercive control on my sister, and was a psychopath and gotten away with it and is living happily ever after with a woman right now with her family. He lied about it, the whole works. But what's really frustrating to me is I wanted to go back to court. And it had been 10 years, two months, so I you know, I'd lost the time frame to be able to do that. But there was no justice served whatsoever. And I think that to this day, I feel like I want to bring awareness to what happened. And I want to bring awareness to what happened to me. Because so many people, men and women alike, I mean, it's not just women that are getting Condit, it's, it's both. So sort of bringing up the red flags. But one thing about victim blaming, I didn't care if I got blamed, because it was so about spreading awareness. And I knew who I was as an individual. So it didn't, you know, maybe the first few times I'm like, What in the world is going on? How can someone blame the victim? You know, and you really have to sit there and go, You know what, it isn't about me right now. It's about building awareness to help other people.

Collier Landry 36:03

So that it is,

Debra Newell 36:05

yeah, so I, and I'm thinking, as you're telling me your story, you are extremely strong. Oh, thank you. Yeah. And what an incredible person you are, for what you've done, you know, at the age of 11, standing up for what was right, and being able to rebuild, and go through what you've gone through. I bet just I mean, it brings tears my eyes. What an amazing person you are.

Collier Landry 36:36

Well, thank you, that is this very kind of you to say, you know, I did it all for my mother and, and even continuing to tell the story and and doing this podcast to really raise awareness. I mean, look, I think we're all extraordinary, all the people on this, on this on this call on this on this on this episode, because, you know, it's I'm glad you know, I'm this is the side that people don't get to see. Right. Yeah, don't and it's incredible. And it's it's nice to find like that kindred spirit and someone that is that has been through these these things, because we all we understand it, you know, Oh, yeah. So easy. And we don't get you know, I was talking to your daughter, and I'll talk to you guys about this together as well. But one of the things that I'm very, I wouldn't say I'm obsessed with, but I am definitely very curious about as someone whose entire life pretty much the majority of time if I just turned 44, which is the age that my mother was murdered at six was a big year for me. Yeah. And a lot of thoughts just kind of process through my head. But, you know, one of the things I've always been interested in is why people are so obsessed with true crime. You know, I'm getting ready to go to crime con next month, and I know Oh, good. has been there. Yeah. And and it's, it's interesting, because I'm going there to but I realized that when I think about I'm going to a trade show of people that are very obsessed with true crime. Oh,

Debra Newell 38:07

it's fantastic. By the way, we were speakers two years ago.

Collier Landry 38:11

Oh, that's so cool. That's great, then I need to and then I am I'm excited to go. But I think it's just it's one of those things where I'm just, you know, I think about people's obsession. And there are a, you know, obviously a myriad of true crime podcasts out there. And it is a real thing. And you know, there was an episode of Forensic Files, it was done on the case. And it is the most part, like one of the most popular like top 10 out of 450 episodes that show has top 10 in the history of the show, and there's, uh, you know, I was interviewed for a book by the author by the blogger that does Forensic Files now. And she, and she, you know, I asked her, I said, What do you think, why do you think people are obsessed with crime? And so I want to ask you the same thing. Why do you think people are obsessed with this? What do you think it is?

Debra Newell 38:57

Because I think it's far too common out there. A lot of people don't talk about it. And I also believe that with the mind, you know, reading about psychopaths, studying, you know, all the different types of what happens to us, you know, traits of, of sociopaths, psychopaths, narcissists, so on, I think that we just are trying to understand, you know, it's a little bit fascinating to me now, too. I have a book that came out. I don't know if you know that.

Collier Landry 39:34

Yes, you did. So is it called Surviving dirty, John? It

Debra Newell 39:37

is. And it really does get into the real story of what really happened. But it gets into the different personality traits. It gets into understanding red flags, and also curse of control because a lot of people don't know what that means. And it's so prevalent out there

Collier Landry 39:57

now that they've done they learn what it means and then they go Oh, Mike. Ah, do they have this? Right? Yes, what's happening happening to me my whole life. And I think that's, that's something that That definitely happens when I like read these letters, right? And just to share your story and people actually, because again, you don't realize it when it's going on. And then when you when you have that, you know, it's like what they're saying that, you know, I guess they saying, Hey, you have to alcoholics have their moment of clarity. And they go, oh, right, you have this like, overwhelming moment of clarity where you go, Oh, my God, this is this was happening to me. Right. And it's amazing. It's an amazing gift. That I mean, this is the way I look at my life. I feel like I have been given an amazing gift, despite what has happened to me, where I have the strength that I can show other people that you can get through these challenging circumstances, you can get through this. And I feel that you guys, that you and your daughter are the same way where well, you know, God never gives us more you're, of course, you're welcome. And I mean, it it because I feel the same way as that this is what you're able, this is your light that you're able to shine into the world to, and you've made the sacrifice, if you will, to, you know, to share this with the world. And it's very, thank you. It's very commendable.

Debra Newell 41:16

Thank you, same to you. Well,

Collier Landry 41:18

thank you. Well, it's really hard when you think about or when you hear Deborah story, when you hear Tara talk about it with her. You know, these are two women that were very strong women that have come through a really insane circumstance. I mean, let's just call it what it is, is it's so insane that it became a television show. Podcast and and television show and analysis series. Now. Now a franchise there's other cases now they're exploring. So it's interesting to see, to listen to them, it's interesting to listen to them share their process of getting through all of this. It's really cool. It's really commendable. And, and all they wanted to do at the end of the day is share this story, to better help those that are suffering domestic abuse, domestic violence, coercive control, when you're in these abusive relationships. Now, again, I've talked about this ad nauseam on the program, but everybody coming through COVID Like you were stranded with someone, essentially a quarantine people were quarantine with people that they didn't really know. And then they got to know they were kind of like, oh, this is my spouse or domestic partner, or this person, or this is my husband or spouse I guess, or wife, or this is my person or my father or this, that and the other. You know, that we don't realize that these things are happening. And that's the most insidious thing of all this. I mean, when I read my father's letters on this program, you guys get to see the manipulation and the psychopathy and narcissism that he does to his son whose mother that he murdered and then trying to gaslight him, and the gaslighting is so is so insidious, because it becomes this this thing where you're like, Am I crazy? Am I crazy? Because you think you're going crazy because you're being gaslighted it's a lot. It's, you know, it's a lot to hear their story, but kudos to them for telling their story to raise awareness for domestic abuse, domestic violence, coercive control, again, I'm repeating this over and over again, but mad props to Deborah to Tara for telling their stories for having the courage to do that. Because not a lot of people do. And hopefully, they're in store their stories, my story. us sharing these things personally with you guys. Helps you guys that are moving through this own trauma in your lives and knowing that you're not alone in all of this. I mean, that's the thing at the end of the day, it's why I've made a murderer in Mansfield. It's why I do this program. I want you to know that whoever you are, if you're going through this shit, you are not alone and you will get through it. I'm living proof. Deborah is living proof. Tara is living proof. We're all here and we're all okay and we're just doing it one day at a time but we're moving past it. And that's what it's all about. So you too will be okay. And just know that that's all anyways, but that's just how I feel. I want to hear how you guys feel. Again reach out to me on the social medias. You can DM me you can email me at G at moving past You can reach out through my website there are many ways to get a hold of me because there are not many Collier Landry's out there in the world. So you will find me anything at call your Landry my socials. I love hearing from you guys because it helps me create the content that I best suits you guys, my audience. So anyways, y'all have a fantastic week.

I'm Collier Landry, and this is Moving Past Murder. Thanks y'all.

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