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Cash, Crime, and Sociopaths: Murderish Host Jami Rice Explores the Connection

Murderish host Jami Rice digs deep into the most disturbing true crimes and mysteries. In episode 40, of Moving Past Murder, she and Collier dish on their cases, compare sociopaths and discuss troubles with the true-crime business. They look at financial crimes and their connection to violent crimes. As well as how the criminal minds of a murderer and a thief aren’t so different.

  • The woman who stole $15 million from a bank with pie and a made-up persona. Jami discusses totally bizarre, but totally true crime she’s now working to crack.

  • Does the entertainment industry fetishize and even award certain types of criminals? Real-life con-artist Anna Delvey had her story made into the Netflix special, Inventing Anna. The Tinder Swindler, Simon Leviev, tricked innocent women into giving him millions of dollars, and now he has his own TV special about his devious life. Both Simon and Anna are making lots of money off their criminal behavior. Collier and Jami share their outrage.

  • Are some of Collier’s podcast listeners reaching out and trying to contact his dad?

  • What happens when the subjects of true-crime podcasts and their friends and families hear what podcast hosts are saying about them? The risk that comes with the job.

  • Whatever happened to Collier’s dog that disappeared after his mom disappeared? The moment that caused Collier to break down.

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Full Transcript:

Jami Rice 00:02

I'm trying to help bring justice and I'm also trying to satisfy my own curiosity. I met this woman, and you're not going to believe this. I met her because right before she ripped off the bank for $15 million. She drove her happy ass down to the bank. Through LA traffic parked her porch, came upstairs to we were on like the 20 Something floor of Downtown LA building, and brought us homemade pies to thank us for working on this loan for her. I mean, for me, I'm not a psychologist. I don't know if she's a sociopath. But what kind of sociopath knows they're ripping you off and shows their face in your office and brings you pi. And a month later she takes off with the money it was. It's bizarre.

Intro Stinger 00:48

Testimony continued today in the most notorious criminal trial in Richland County history. Dr. John Boyle is accused of killing his wife, Noreen, and burying her body in the basement of his new home in Erie, Pennsylvania. The 12-year-old son finally took the stand. I heard a scream, I heard a thud. It was about this loud. We the jury find the defendant guilty.

Collier Landry 01:08

When I was twelve years old, my testimony sent my father to prison for murdering my mother. This podcast serves as a type of therapy and reconciliation for myself, and it is my hope it helps anyone who has experienced deception, betrayal, and dark trauma. I’m Collier Landry, and this is Moving Past Murder.

Hey movers what's going on? Welcome back to another episode of moving past murder. I'm your host Collier Landry. What's going on? What's going on? What's going know? Anyways, thank you guys for tuning in again to another episode. I've got a great episode today. I'm really excited about my latest guest for today's episode. She's really cool. I met her at Podcast Movement evolutions not too long ago, and then reconnected with her at crime con a couple of weeks ago. So it's really cool. Want to give a shout out to all of you guys that are listening and supporting the program I've had a very significant increase in a lot of the traffic to the podcast, and I know that a lot of you are discovering me on Tik Tok or Instagram but for those of you that are coming in joining that are downloading they're listening, they're sharing with your friends, you have no idea how much this means to me You have no idea and it makes me feel good that the message and that the content that I'm creating is connecting with you guys I mean that it means the world to me because this is you know, this is a labor a labor of love most of the time. But I want to also give a special shout out to my newest and latest and greatest Patreon subscribers. They are Christina Manolo Jen, Michelle Kimball and Mary Marshall when thank you guys so much for joining and supporting. It means the world to me. I just I love all of you guys. Thank you so much. There's my there's my sort of spiel of the day. But yeah, I'm I'm really I'm really grateful for the support guys, honestly. And thank you so much. And if you don't follow me on any of the socials, I'm on Tik Tok, I am on Instagram, I am on Facebook, Twitter, Baba, it's all at call your Landry. If you're watching this on YouTube, please click LIKE and SUBSCRIBE helps with the algorithm, which helps me in the long run and helps you guys as well. I normally do a listener shout out every episode, as you guys know, either from my DMs or somebody post something on social, but I want to kind of give a blanket one. And this is a question that I've been running into a lot. As the podcast grows. And as people are watching more of my content or listening to more of my content, I get this question a lot. And it's it's a frustrating question for me. And it's, it's, it's somewhat annoying, but it's not annoying for the normal reasons. It's not because people were asking me all the time because I think it's a very valid question. The annoying part is that I don't really have a good answer. And that is what happened to my sister who was there when the murder happened and, and you guys really want to know what my relationship is like with her. For those of you that have seen the film murder Mansfield, you guys know that I've reached out and tried to contact her. Straight up. I have not seen her since I believe January, February of 1991. Her our foster parents, which then became her adoptive parents, they didn't want custody of me. So I went into the court system after being in foster care, but she was adopted by them and they just decided to remove me from her life. And that was their choice. They were her parents and that's what happened. So that gives you guys kind of a little bit of a background I have tried to reconnect with her so many times over the years to no avail. I hear stories every once in a while but not a lot. She appears to be a ghost on social media, I am not actively trying to make her feel uncomfortable or anything. So I don't, you know, I am not aggressive when trying to contact her or anything. Because I can't find her. And if she is listening, I am here for you. I am an open door and open book. You can come to me anytime. Like I've told all of my family over the years, especially the ones that abandoned me, because of this nonsense of my father murdering my mother. I forgive all of you, and I want all of you in my life. But that's up to you. It is not for lack of trying on my part that said, okay, we can move on, we can move past that. But if you guys still asked that question, that's fine, too. I just wanted to address it, because it's very, a lot of people asking is such a valid question. It's just for me, it's frustrating, because I can't be like, oh, yeah, I talked to her or this and that, you know, it's just, it's unfortunate. So, but you know, hey, life is what it is. So for those of you who've listened to the podcast, or follow me for years, since I made the film of murder Mansfield, you know that there is one thing that I am super Pat, well, there's a lot of things I'm super passionate about, let's just keep it real. But you know, there's one thing in particular that I'm really passionate about, and that is people's obsession with true crime. I mean, this is a somewhat of a true crime podcast, I guess, because of my story. And I talk to True Crime people and survivors. But I'm very, very, very interested in why people are into true crime. Now, either when it comes to like murders and and, you know, just violent crime in general, I am sort of perplexed as someone who has lived through a murder. I don't have any fascination in it, but I am interested in people's reactions and what they see in that that was one of the amazing things when I went to crime con, to talk to True Crime fans to kind of really understand what you know, I call it an obsession, but, you know, just a general interest in true crime. So for me, when I get to talk to people that have successful True Crime podcasts, I'm like, All yours or were there journalists like we've had Chris Hanson on the show, who was amazing, and I asked him what his perception of true crime was, and why he thinks people are obsessed with it. I've asked many people, someone such as Rebecca Reisner, who is the writer for Forensic Files now blog. We discussed that in an episode towards the end of last year, and you know, it was great having her on the show and discussing those things. So anyways, full can full disclosure, though, when he does come to true crime. There are certain things that I am I mean, I don't ever look at them as true crime, but I guess they really are. There are things I am fascinated about and that is like financial crimes, Ponzi schemes. people that think that like the tinder swindlers a big thing right now, people that think they can get away with shit like this is staggering to me. And maybe that's what people who like, you know, are interested in murderers and, and kidnappings and serial killers. Maybe they maybe they said, it's just the sheer audacity that somebody has the hutzpah look for lack of a better word hutzpah to carry out something like that. I don't know. Anyways, that's my thoughts. So my guest today is the host of murderer ish podcast. My guest, Jamie rice is also the host of a very new and cool podcast, which is what I want to talk to her about today. And that is called Dirty Money moves. The women have white collar crime. So we're going to discuss that podcast today because I'm interested in this financial crime stuff. And full disclosure, as I tell her well, actually, you'll hear our interview, I'll give my thoughts at the end. My guest today is Jamie rice. She is the creator and host of murderous the podcast, which has been around for seven

Jami Rice 08:58

years, five years. It's four and a half years going on five years.

Collier Landry 09:02

That's crazy. That's,

Jami Rice 09:04

it feels like a lifetime.

Collier Landry 09:07

And, you know, I'm so new to the podcast game, but we were just discussing your latest endeavor, which is something that I you know, I want to have you on because I'm so fascinated with people that are really into true crime. But that's, you know, been a sort of a fascination my whole life of why are people fascinated with murders and, and these killings and kidnappings and things of that nature, having come through this myself, right. But one of the things I am really fascinated in the true crime world is financial crimes. You have a new series that you were telling me about.

Jami Rice 09:40

Right? And oh boy, yeah, this is a wild story. So I just launched my second podcast, it's called Dirty Money moves women in white collar crime. And really the inspiration for the podcast was a woman named Mary Carol McDonnell, who I met in 2018 when I worked for a bank in downtown mele. I used to work for Bank of California. I used to do commercial loans mostly like commercial real estate financing. But this lady walked in she was presented to the bank by her high profile attorney, a Hollywood attorney named Barry Rothman. And I didn't know much about anything about Barry Rothman at the time, and I never knew Mary Carol. But what we did know is Barry, Barry made sure to present her as she's a very wealthy heiress. She is the heiress to the McDonnell Douglas fortune McDonnell Douglas was the big aircraft company who merged with Boeing in like the 1990s. I want to say, so she was the heiress to the McDonald fortune, which was worth about 400 million her cut of it would be about 80 million. And according to bury her attorney, she was about to get start getting distributions from that family trust in about a year so in 2019, so she was also and this part is true. Barry Rothman made sure to let us know she was the CEO of a very successful Los Angeles based TV production company called Belem entertainment. So, yeah, in Belem entertainment was a real company they've churned out a bunch of true crime TV shows that you guys have probably binged unsealed alien files and all this stuff. Murder with it for sure. Yeah, yeah, murder with I don't know, just all kinds of murder, murder murder shows. And so she was so we're like, oh, she's this very wealthy heiress that's interesting. She's the CEO of a true crime TV production company, which perked my ears up because I at that time had already been producing murder ish, my other podcast. So long story short, she was referred into the bank by Barry Rothman. And the bank in 2018, early 2018 approved a loan for the heiress for $15 million. Well, as soon as she got her hands on the money, she searched, the loan was funded and approved. She started calling into the bank to request you know, advances on the loan, which she was allowed to do to be put into her bank account it she racked up a balance of about four $14.2 million. And then the bank needed to call her regarding a certain matter and she couldn't be reached. Then the first payment was due she didn't make the payment. They're like, shit. So we that's when the bank knew okay, something's up. The bank did some further investigation. Long story short, they found out everything that we had been told was a lie, she was likely not an heiress. Turns out Belem entertainment was a real company, but it was in shambles. It was a house of cards about to fall, she had numerous complaints from the Labor Board by employees have Belem saying this lady never paid us which turned out to be true. So, the bank was in a real

Collier Landry 12:49

was related to the company she was working for Bella entertainment.

Jami Rice 12:52

She was she was the CEO and founder of Belem entertainment, but she was not a wealthy heiress. She had no relation to the McDonald family. But that was just a story she had been telling almost like her whole life. And we believe it's very, very likely that Barry knew all of this and was in on the scam because now that we've started this, so what happened was then there was a shitstorm at the bank, right? The banks like we've just been scammed out of $15 million. And it was really stressful. I mean, I didn't have anything to do with the loan. But my three colleagues who I worked very closely with, they're the ones who brought her in as a client, and they ultimately got fired. And they had nothing to do with this. By the way, we were all scabbard. None of us knew none of this was true, but they thought they were making a loan to a wealthy heiress CEO. But they got fired. I left the bank about a month after this happened, because it was just a shitstorm. I was no longer happy working there. But I always remembered this incident and this woman and I always told myself, I'm going to do a podcast on this woman someday, but I just need some time and need to be able to research diet, and boy did we ever so I would say like six months ago, seven months ago, my team and I started researching Mary Carol McDonnell. And we uncovered so much on her that it's just wild. This woman has been able to pull off scams totaling about $44 million to date that we can prove. And she doesn't scam vulnerable people. I mean, she scams, very smart people, attorneys out of millions of dollars Jovi type situation. Yes, she is inventing panna home right. It really is. And she she's inventing Anna Mary Carol McDonnell is like Anna del v on steroids. Because Mary Carol was able to pull off multiple, multiple multiple scams totaling like $44 million against very smart people and smart institutions. We're talking, you know, Bank of California is a publicly traded bank. They're worth a few billion dollars. wasn't assets when I worked there for like 100 years or while it's not 100 years, but a while. I mean, they're definitely a notable bank and she was able to scam them out of $15 million. And they're not the only ones. So she's fascinating. She, she, her hustle is as impressive as it is disgusting. I mean, it's, it's impressive what she was able to pull off. And I just became obsessed with her when I left the bank. And I always knew that I would research her one day and dive into the story. And we have and we've uncovered so much and there's even Hollywood ties. So this guy, Barry Rothman right after she took off with the money before the FBI could even question him about his alleged involvement in the scam. He dropped dead under bizarre circumstances. No. And yes, and so we're all thinking she had something to do with it, right. Like she often before she left town, because he knew too much. And maybe she didn't want to share the $15 million with him. But he has ties to the Michael Jackson scandal. He was if you Google Barry Rothman he essentially tried to extort $20 million out of Michael Jackson, and found himself at war with the King of Pop and the King of Pop's legal team. I mean, he's not so Barry Rothman turns out yes, he was a practicing entertainment lawyer, who by the way represented the who the Rolling Stones, Yolanda Hadid, like he was a notable attorney. But as we've researched him, we have uncovered some shady Enos in his past, that he's a very colorful guy, and not necessarily in a good way. So it seems like Kim and Mary Carroll was sort of like destined to link up at some point. starcrossed

Collier Landry 16:41

lovers, right? Absolutely.

Jami Rice 16:45

You to think of them as lovers bros. But yeah, I mean, they were just the perfect pair and they pulled it off. But then Barry died before he could enjoy the money.

Collier Landry 16:56

Very interesting. So okay, so really fast. Is she incarcerated? She's not. So she on the run? Do people know where she's Yeah. Is she just fighting this? Or is she like, holed up in Bailey somewhere?

Jami Rice 17:09

She's essentially on the run. So she took off with the money we Nobody that I know of has heard from her or seen her since you know, that 2018 When she got the money from bank of California. Now, as far as I know, she's currently with her third husband, a doctor. And I don't know how much he knows about her. Or if he's listened to the podcast and discovered some new things about his wife. I don't know. But I gotta believe that he knows something. But essentially, no, she is not responding to anything. She has invoked her fifth amendment right through her attorney. They've been you know, she's been indicted on six charges relating to the $15 million hustle on bank of California. So she's been indicted by a federal prosecutor. So she, but she's not appeared in court since then. And now she has stopped responding all together, invoking her fifth amendment right. So she's on the run. And I don't know what the next move is. I currently don't know where she is. But we're trying to find that out.

Collier Landry 18:13

There's so much to unpack here. And right, you know, I met you at podcast evolutions, I believe. And then we were just at crime con together. And, like I when I approached you, as someone who's been through, you know, a murder and and lived this sort of true crime lifestyle. I'm absolutely obsessed with this. And I just had Chris Hanson on the program a couple of weeks ago, and we were Wow, that's awesome. Arms. Oh, thank you. Yeah, it was great. And, yeah, we were discussing the whole armchair detective theory and things like that. Because, you know, and I listened to your podcast, and, you know, you're very, it's, it's, it's amazing to me, because the amount of like research and detail that you go into, and you're just, you're basically, I mean, at least the episodes that I listened to, it's you're just telling the whole story. And it's very, you know, it's very well done. And, you know, my friend Alexis Linkletter does first degree with Billy Hanson and Jack Vanek. And, again, like so much research so much, and then discussion and just, it's really, really cool. And thank you. So I'm sort of, you know, you're welcome. For sure. And I'm, you know, I had a reticence going to crime con as a victim survivor, right. And, you know, because again, like, why are people fascinated? Why, you know, but I personally am so interested in these financial scams, and just so I guess, it's it almost like when these things happen, like, obviously, the murders have been solved, you know, what's happened, these people are incarcerated, but this is something that you're like, actively you're personally connected to first, which is sure, which is awesome. I mean, you were at least a murderer, right? It's awesome. Right, right. Yeah. Yes. Yes. But you're not like you're a part of it. But you're not. You're

Jami Rice 20:03

not a victim of hers. You're not, which is I feel very fortunate. Yeah, for sure.

Collier Landry 20:08

Right. And you're now you're actively pursuing this, like, Yeah, let's go get this bitch.

Jami Rice 20:14

Yeah, that's really what it is. It's really what it is. And the more people that we can get to listen to the podcast, you know, the more there is a chance that somebody no has spoken with her and could give us a clue as to where she is. She's talking to somebody she has to she has children. You know, she certainly has a family. She has friends. I'm sure it well, maybe not many now, because she's ripped off a lot of her friends. But yeah, I mean, we are actively investigating this. And I'm getting weekly DMS and emails from people saying, I knew her and this, this and this and divulging certain information, which is amazing. And I'm just hoping that it just takes that one person to find out about the podcast and go, You know what, oh, my gosh, I have information. Because what we're finding is that first off, we are the first people to bring this story forth. Nobody has told Mary Carol's story. And we have truly uncovered things that are blowing people's minds because and blowing my own mind. I didn't know there was this much to the story. I suspected that she had some something interesting in her past and probably had done this before. I had no idea to the gravity of what she's done and how long she's been doing it and who's been affected? And how she's gotten other people involved to help her. I mean, how does she do this? So it is pretty cool. We are actively investigating it. And I am hoping that it just takes one person to reach out and go, You know what, I have an idea where she might be this is why and you know, I will get on a plane my researcher and I have already committed and it's not that I can go and arrest her. It's not that I would interject myself into you know what she's already been indicted for? I can't I can't do anything. But I would absolutely just want to observe and confirm that. Yep, there she is. And I would pass along that information to the prosecutor. And they may very well know where she is right now, if the FBI is involved, I gotta believe they probably know exactly where she is. But for some reason haven't moved in. And I don't know why. But I would just want to confirm for myself since I have such an interest in this case, I would get on a plane I don't care where she is I would get on a plane and just confirm it for myself. I would pass that information along to whoever's investigating this and see where it takes them. You know, I don't want I'm my goal is not to interfere. And and get in the way of justice. I'm trying to help bring justice and I'm also trying to satisfy my own curiosity. I met this woman, and you're not going to believe this. I met her because right before she ripped off the bank for $15 million. She drove her happy ass down to the bank. Through LA traffic parked her porch, came upstairs to we were on like the 20 Something floor of Downtown LA building and brought us homemade pies to thank us for working on this loan for her. I mean, for me, I'm not a psychologist. I don't know if she's a sociopath. But what kind of sociopath knows they're ripping you off and shows their face in your office and brings you pi. And a month later, she takes off with the money. It was. It's bizarre, and none of us knew. I mean, we thought she was this wealthy heiress, you know, CEO bringing us these pies. It's just, that's how I met her. I shook her hand and I can tell you wish she was wearing she looked apart. She looked rich. She had a expensive handbag in one hand and two pies on the other. So just fascinating, because if I were her, I mean I feel like if I were her and I was about to pull off a $15 million money grab, I would not want to show my face to the people I'm ripping off that takes a special kind of person. The Mary Carol McDonald did do that. And that's how I met her in our office

Collier Landry 24:01

that is just bonkers. And so yeah, it's you are you are the armchair detective. You are literally it's yes. It's it's cool. You have this personal connection to it. I'm really fascinated. I mean, you know, it's like a watch that film don't fuck with GATS. Oh god yes on accident bizarre. Very bizarre, very scary. I don't normally watch those types of things. And I also don't normally like go and double check the lock on my front door, but I did that night. I was like, Oh, just make sure it's okay. But you know, you look at something like that and I don't know what I found more terrifying honestly, it was it be what the perpetrator this guy did? Or was it the fact that these people were so relentless and social media and could delve into all this stuff to find this person because they seem just as Yeah, but and yeah, tick about this. And I'm like, That's terrifying to so I'm terrified. Yeah, Have both of them.

Jami Rice 25:01

Yeah, I mean, both angles are interesting. So part of the reason I'm interested in true crime is I don't want the gory details. I don't that that's not at all what I'm after. I want to dive into the mind of a killer. I want to dive into the mind because they are so far from the average everyday human being their psychology. What is it about their brain that makes them different enough to be able to pull off and be able to murder? I could never murder somebody. I mean, you hurt my kids. I could probably murder for that. Right, right. Or my dogs? No, but yeah, but you know, my family. But yeah, but but but it takes a special kind of person. I think, you know, their psychology to be able to murder somebody. But equally fascinating. Are the investigators. What tactics do they use? Whether they're a professional investigator or armchair detectives? I'm so fascinated by what tactics they've used to be able to find the killer. Find that it's fascinating.

Collier Landry 26:01

I'm also really, I don't want to keep using the same. The same. What is the word? What's the word I'm looking for? I don't want to keep saying fascinating. But yeah, I find very interesting is how people seem to in this day and age think that they can get away with this shit. Exactly. Because it's just it's like the tinder swindler guy who is has gotten away with it he's getting a deal is signed with like UTA or some big agency and they're gonna give them a dating show. I mean, what a piece of shit for us. And second of all, it's like what a he is fascinating to me, the hutzpah or just the gist or the sociopathy and psychopathy behind these people that actually the narcissism that they they're gonna get away with this shit. And then the Yes, and then you're just like, Fuck them. pisses you off, guys. It really does. Because you just you want to have the sense of justice, right? And you want to see these things to fruition and you want to go okay, I want to see the bad guy go to jail. Yes. And sadly, it feels like a lot of times this in this day and age. That is just something that is it is not the case.

Jami Rice 27:17

You're You're exactly right. And the I am the type of person and I know I'm not the only one I I get so angry when there's a miss justice, like injustice. I'm sorry, like OJ Simpson that pisses me off still to this day. That's like, it's so obvious that he did it, but he really never has had to pay for that brutal double murder. And, you know, in the case of Mary Carol McDonnell, you know, part of me thinks and and I'm not the only one Mary Carol McDonald, she's so she's so probably narcissistic. Again, I am not a doctor, so I cannot diagnose her, but she's probably narcissistic. She is self absorbed. She'd probably be flattered to know that we're doing a podcast solely based on her. Come on. But I want to be the one laughing when she's perp walked an m&m Totally dramatized in my mind. She's heard of water. It's yeah, it's a fantasy. But I want to be the last one laughing and all the people that she stiffed and ruined financially to go, Yeah, cool. We have a podcast about you. I'm glad that flatters you. But now you're behind bars, right? Like, that would be so amazing. But part of me thinks she's probably flattered by it in some way.

Collier Landry 28:24

100%. You know, it's really funny. You said that, like, I'm thinking about my podcast, right? And, you know, I started going viral on Tiktok. Recently, like a week, a week ago, when we were at crime con, or whatever. And I started thinking like, the other day, I wonder if people were reaching out to my father in prison? Oh, yeah, Docker did that for sure. But I'm wondering like, oh, are people reaching out to him? And being like, Oh, we've we discovered you, we discovered you on this podcast that your son has. And, you know, I can only imagine. And that's just and I think that, you know, somebody said to me, do you think your father listens to your podcast? And I was like, I don't know. I don't really care either. But the thing to me is, I started thinking, Well, what if he does? And what if these people just reach out to him? Because they're obviously fans and people that, you know,

Jami Rice 29:19

there are people out there listening, who could go and tell your father, hey, this is what he's saying. And not that you care, obviously, because we're putting ourselves out there. We know that that's a risk we run, you know, whether we care about it or not. But it I think the same thing with this new podcast with Mary Carol. She's got friends and family who are going to find out about it, and they're going to tell her and I wonder if what she would think about it, right? And it's kind of surreal, because there are sources that we've used to know very Mary Carol very well, but they want they want to stay anonymous. This person that I'm thinking of right now, who's been a major source for us of information. I'm sure they are blown away. It's surreal for them to listen. And they're saying they're learning new things. They never knew about this person that they've known for. However many years, you know, so I thought that was interesting when you were saying that it's like, there's people out there listening, probably letting your father know, you know, the things that you're saying on your podcast about him, which is a little. It's weird, but we run that risk of, yeah, we're putting ourselves out there. Yeah, we

Collier Landry 30:25

do. For sure. You know, I, it's so yeah, it was something it never really occurred to me, but it was after crime con. And I'm like, I wonder because people ask me that they Oh, do you think your father, your father listens? And I'm like, I don't really know. I don't really know. I mean, I don't know if you've seen my documentary. I don't know any of that. You know, I think for me, obviously, what I've been through is the murder of my mother, by my father, I witnessed it, I put him in prison, you know, or he put himself in prison. But I, you know, the scary thing is that, you know, it was tricky as a missing persons case. And it was this 11 year old kid saying, you know, I know she's dead. And then I find the picture of the house. And that's where they ultimately find my mother's body buried in another state and things like that, right. So I look at the destruction because for me, my impetus of just even moving to Los Angeles to become a filmmaker, and do all this, as you know, from that moment that all this occurred, I was like, I need to do something with this story. And I also need to honor my mother. And that became the sort of relentless drive for me, because, you know, back when I made the film, or you long before I made the film, actually, I realized that we as a as an, as a society, you know, look at the situation, okay? You know, the victim is dead, the bad guy goes to jail, the gavel hits, judge the, you know, next stage gets us restitution, and we don't look at the consequences of violence, and the consequences and the ramifications on communities, families, you know, those types of ancillary victims, right. And, you know, now that's become way more in fashion. And now people are really examining these things for good or bad, whatever that is, right. Because with that comes a lot of victim shaming and judgment and things of that nature, which is unfortunate. On the flip side, when I think about financial crimes, which I often will refer to as financial violence, I almost feel like it is even more insidious than somebody killing someone. You think about the destruction and the collateral damage of someone that maybe invests their life savings, like with a Bernie Madoff, for example, or Yes, woman who takes his takes money right now, obviously, a bank and obviously, there's some ramifications. And of course, because people work in a bank, somebody's gonna get fired, somebody's gonna be held accountable, even though they they don't know any better than, than anyone else. Right? Right. That doesn't necessarily matter. But what I find probably the most insidious thing about these financial crimes is the people who, you know, work their whole life invested their 401k, then they wake up one day and go, it, they were a scammer, it's gone. And then you think about how that translates into life. Right? So if you're, if you're retired, okay, you know, where retirement? What do you do, but also if you're younger, and then this throws a monkey wrench into your family planning your family's financial security and future? What does that lead to? Violence, right, that's gonna lead to another form. If your spouse loses all your money, you might want to kill them, you might actually do it. So I feel like in a lot of ways, these types of fraud, these crimes of fraud, these these cons, there are ultimately a lot more. I mean, obviously, I don't want to ignore the devastation of a murderer of course, of course that because it's devastating, but, but speaking with my sort of authority on the subject, I think that really, when you look at these financial crimes, because we treat them as more benign and not for as actually as they are like a financially violent way of treating someone and then they're looking at those repercussions and ramifications on families and then how that also incites violence. I think that is probably the most tragic thing about these situations. And also the thing that I find most fascinating.

Jami Rice 34:40

Yeah, I absolutely hear what you're saying. And you know, with Mary Carol McDonald specifically, she was a slow burn she I think about the damage she does to somebody's psychology like their their mental well being because she had been manipulating them for so long. She had A very close friends and colleagues who knew her who trusted her who loved her. So much so that when she came knocking on their door I'm talking about she had some attorney friends and some old colleagues in the TV business who were wealthy people came knocking on their door and said, Hey, do you want to invest in my family trusts you as the heiress? She's, you know, my family trust has a gifting program will get you a 20 30% return? And you know, yes, and they went for it. And in one case, I mean, one of her close friend, I'm talking, these are close friends of hers who trusted her invested over $3 million of their money. Do you know what that must have done to his marriage, his family, his financial well, being the plans he had for his own business, his own, you know, retirement, that he'll never get that money back. And that was his friend. So now he's trying to deal with, Oh, my God, I loved this woman. She was, I trusted her. She was my friend, and she just ripped me off. In Cold Blood. It's like, yeah, the money's gone. But now he's also left with the damage, you know, to his mental wellness over what she did. And and I think that this could, you know, lead couples to get a divorce because it puts such a strain on the family financially suicide, you're absolutely right. So there are all these, you know, things these these, what do you call that that could happen in the aftermath of it that you don't think about? It's not that she took just took $3 million from a guy who was doing pretty well in life, you know, she could have caught she caused so much other residual damage that cannot be defined.

Collier Landry 36:43

Yeah, it's not like she scammed like Bill Gates out of $3 million. But is that right, you know, like a drop in the bucket can losing his you know, dropping a nickel on the sidewalk? Sure. This is these are people that like that represents a substantial portion of their, of their

Jami Rice 37:01

financial stability, yeah,

Collier Landry 37:04

and life planning and things like that. And then they can't pay the mortgage, they lose their house, you know, the spirals, and then you know, the, you know, then they can do a car accident, they start taking opioids, and then

Jami Rice 37:15

you're exactly right, that you could say that is exactly right. And, you know, I don't know when you when you said suicide, it's like Barry Rothman I told you, her colorful attorney who had ties to Michael Jackson, what he did with that alleged victim's father, he and the alleged victim's father tried both, just seems like they teamed up to try to extort 20 million from Michael Jackson. But when all was said and done, you know, the father ended up dying by suicide. Yeah, he was never the same. And I'm not saying he was that good of a person. It sounds like he definitely used his son's potential to, you know, tragedy for his own financial gain. That's what it seems like happen. But there's just all this stuff that's bigger, these bigger things that can happen, that you just keep re victimizing people over and over and over again, when you mess with, you know, like you said, their financial stability, and you just steer them in the wrong direction. And Mary Carol, certainly, I mean, she just did it over and over and over again. And she did it to people who were the closest to her. We have evidence that she, you know, forged the signature of her own sons on court documents that would implicate them in a potential crime forged

Collier Landry 38:31

my mother's name on the house that they my mother's body was buried in

Jami Rice 38:35

disgusting. I mean, it's disgusting. And people do these things. And I'm, I'm fascinated, I'm disgusted by it, but I am fascinated by it. Because again, it is so far outside of what the normal average everyday human being is, would be capable of doing. Yeah. You know, but yeah, Mary Carl was a very is a very, very selfish and tenacious scammer. I mean, she is tenacious, I have people that tell me that she tried to get them to invest in her gifting program. And when they repeatedly told her no, she was not happy, and she would keep going at them and going at them and going at them. The word no, never meant anything to her. But well,

Collier Landry 39:17

no, they're Yeah, insulted their narcissism is insulted by the fact that how dare you? How dare you insinuate that what I'm offering you is anything but legitimate. Absolutely. I mean, yeah, you you really insult them and then you're in and you're like, but like, I don't like no, I don't want to participate in that. Yeah, and it's it's interesting, I've seen this happen even in situations where people are you know, doing like, I've just seen it happen so much and oh, yeah, very like the salesman approach. They just get angry like, How dare you say that I'm Yes. And I'm in authentic Yes, like the shit out of Apr. Nobody, that's exactly what this this is like, yeah, I paid for this. And they're like,

Jami Rice 40:05

How dare you? I'm insulted. Yeah, it's just so gross. It's so gross.

Collier Landry 40:11

And it's destructive. It's manipulative. It's destructive. And, and there's no shortage of it in the world, which is really scary.

Jami Rice 40:18

You're exactly right. And you know, it's it's people, like you said,

Collier Landry 40:22

You were more than like, look at the till Yes, then the reward is, so you just keep

Jami Rice 40:25

and Adelphi got 300 grand, didn't she for Netflix to be able to tell her story, or I don't know how that worked. But again,

Collier Landry 40:31

you sort of go well, okay. Why in the hell do they go? Okay, great. Yeah, she got 300 grand, we're going to take 90% of that and disperse that to your victims. You know, where is that sort of thing, but there's always some lawyer that's behind it that's looking out for them, because they're looking out for their own interests, and their paycheck. And it's just, you know, I have many friends that work in law enforcement, and they're like, the American justice system is fucked. But it's still Yeah, the world. And it's like, yeah, it kind of is scary, because that's very frightening. And it's like you think about things that go on in other countries, where people are legitimately act with complete impunity. Doesn't matter what they do, they can invade a country, a sovereign country, and be like, Screw you. It's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's

Jami Rice 41:26

mind boggling. It is. And we see we do see velvet. Yes, I think we see our own form of that here in in the United States, because we see Harvey Weinstein was able to get away with being not just a creeper, but a full blown rapist and sexual predator in Hollywood for decades. And so many people knew it. But he's a powerful celebrity with a ton of money and people cover it up, and they don't talk about it. You know, OJ Simpson, sorry, but I'm obsessed. But it's like, you know, that if that's not star power at play, the reason why he was not convicted, that's a big part of it. So I think we do see it here in the in the United States that all these powers Bill Cosby, I and look people believe one way or another. I know, I know what I believe about him based on what's been presented. And I believe it I believe it's a huge injustice that that man is not behind bars right now. And you know, it just we these celebrities and powerful politicians and powerful people with money, are they get a different form? They get a different justice system than you and I get, they just do. They just absolutely do.

Collier Landry 42:40

Harvey Weinstein is in prison. Let's acknowledge

Jami Rice 42:43

he is who he is. It just should have been sooner. Yeah. But he's fucked.

Collier Landry 42:47

I mean, the end of his life is going is fucking miserable. Let's just wrap it real. So I think there is some justice and that there is some sort of solace that the victims can take. They can I'm bummed about the most is that he made such great movies. Right now. I know. It's so love these films that he made. And then maybe he's a fighter. He's a complete. I mean, in you know, my director, you know, she had an instance with him and her friend and she's like, Yeah, he's, he has a full blown just, he's a sexual predator wound. You know, I remember she, we were in Amsterdam, she was sharing me some of his stories. And I was just like, This is terrible. But again, he's at least behind bars. But I think it's when you see these people, the annadelle V's of the world, the tinder swindlers, these people that then they're turned around and rewarded for it. I mean, like, somebody said to me, you know, I hope that you're, I didn't I did an episode about Chris watts. And my father I call this sociopath mashup. And I literally take because somebody recommended that I watched this Chris Watts documentary, which is all found footage and found footage, you know, body cam, interviews, her Facebook, the wife's Facebook videos, and it's it and courtroom footage. So it's not like a documentary in that sort of sense where they're interviewing people. What I found first of all creeped me out. I didn't know what I was going to be watching and it was the stress is just disgusting and tragic. And it's terrible. But also the thing that that when I was watching it, I'm looking at the at his mannerisms and the victim narcissism and everything. I'm like, This is my father. So I literally do not buy hammered side by side, Chris watts. And my father. So I show Chris Watts when he's talking about that. I analyzed that, that I talked about my father and I literally show courtroom footage. I show footage from my documentary with me talking to him, the way they change their stories, all these things, and then they like the victim narcissism thing. But somebody said to me, you know, we're one of the things in the Chris Watts documentary is he says he's haunted by the sounds of his children's voices as he's snuffing them out essentially. And somebody said to me, you know, do you think that your father, you know, I really, really hope that you're Father every night when he lays his head down, I can hear your mother's voice. And I do you think that is the case? And I said, I said, this is what you're missing. My father is a sociopath, he's he, he doesn't have any empathy. Sure, even as much as I love to think that or whatever. I mean, for me, it's like, that's sort of a, you know, that's like a revenge or a sort of anger thing with me. And I don't have that, you know, I've made peace with the situation long ago. But, you know, I was explaining to this person I said, you know, first of all, I don't really wish that. But second of all, I don't even think it's possible. Because people like that. The way to understand these people is to understand that we are not wired.

Jami Rice 45:44

In a way you're exactly right. That's right. That is the

Collier Landry 45:47

and that is the whole thing. So when you look at the way that these, you know, again, the mendacity with which they conduct themselves, their lives, their business, whatever it is, you you, you have to get well, that's just not normal. You know, and I think that that also, is one of the things that drives people's interest in true crime is trying to really understand the psychology behind all of it. Like why would they do this?

Jami Rice 46:14

Yeah. And most murders are not committed by sociopaths. You know, that they're just not. But but but, like you said, your father, and you know, I think of like, BTK, Dennis Reiter.

Collier Landry 46:27

My brother's murder was premeditated, and I don't think they'll watch the film. They go, Oh, so he pushed her in this. I'm

Jami Rice 46:33

like, no, no, he planned it house.

Collier Landry 46:36

He asked about lowering the basement floor months in advance. Yeah, his girlfriend sign my mother's name on the on the purchase agreement. He then asked to move in early, he rents a jackhammer, he buys the indoor outdoor carpeting that covers her grave, the tarp that she's wrapped on, all those were purchased. Like, I saw them sitting on my porch months ahead of time, right, this was a calculated thing. And I think that's, you know, it's not the crime of passion. You know, now, what you're saying is, like, you know, most of them are committed by sociopath. You know, it's, it's, it's not the crime of passion. It's the it's the crime of, I'm going to do whatever the fuck I want. Yeah, I'm smarter than everyone in the world. And I'm gonna get Yeah, and

Jami Rice 47:20

I'm gonna pull it off. That's the thing. Yes. And he doesn't know. Yeah, but he, I don't I don't know your father. But I suspect he doesn't lose sleep at night, because he's not wired to lose sleep at night like that. If I had to do all over again, she probably suffered this and that they're not wired that way. We're never gonna get that out of a sociopath. And it's like, yeah, I think of BTK Dennis Rader, infamous serial killer, that that guy will never lose an ounce of sleep. Human beings are not something with a beating heartbeat and a family and a story. They are an object. He does not feel any empathy. That's just not how he's wired. They are an object. They probably had it coming, you know, whatever. But yeah, he just sociopaths are a whole different animal, for lack of a better word, they really are just not like you and me. I almost hit a coyote on the way here. And I would have been crying on the way to my office. If I had hit that coyote. I mean, that just I hit a squirrel. It's just that it makes me sad. You know, that's how most of us are when I hear a true crime story. And there's a dog involved. Oh, my God, my heartbreaks children. Yeah, you know, so we are all wired that way. We're like, Oh, my God, no, not the dog, not the baby, not the, but you know, these guys, these sociopaths is. That's just not how they're wired at all. They are a different type of human being for sure.

Collier Landry 48:44

That was the thing with my story, too, that some people get it actually, somebody mentioned to me this morning on social media, they said, you know, are you ever going to talk about your dog? And tell the story that you told me and I was like, Yeah, which was, you know, essentially, you know, I was taken from my home, really, by child services. They're there. The Crime Lab is in the home looking for my mother's body. I say, Can I said, I want to take my dog because he said, like, you have 20 minutes pack a bag, and you're out of here. And, and this is when I was convinced my father was going to kill me because he you know, a couple of days before that, he said, I want I'm going to take you to Florida for a medical conference. And I told the police investigator that I was working with I said, I've been able to swim since age four. I'm going to drown in the Gulf of Mexico. Like that's just what's gonna happen. I was like, You need Yeah, the fuck out of there. And I don't think I use the F word at the time. But you know, I was like, I need to get out of there. Get out of here. Yeah, you knew and he knew that. He knew like, Oh, this is probably the only potential witness to this murder. And he's gonna be gone. And then but anyways, I say can I take my dog and say we'll come back for him? I never saw my dog again. I never found out what happened to my dog. Ah, always bothered me. Course flash forward to I'm doing the premiere of the film in my hometown in the theater that my mom used to volunteer at you Yeah, 2000 people really, like really just an amazing and amazing, an amazing thing to to be able to do. And the projector goes down to so hot. It's like 103 degrees. And I noticed I had noticed a woman wanting to I don't know why I'm getting off on this tangent, but it doesn't. Yeah, it's interesting for the show. And then this project goes down, I rubbed us a new overheated I was like, up didn't blow ball, you know, me working Hollywood movies, things. Obviously that happened at a time. But this woman comes with me this sort of forced intermission. And this is like, totally my mother's Spirit at work to she comes out to me their mission. And she goes, You know, I was, you know, I'm sorry to bother you. I didn't. You know, I wanted to talk to you earlier. I was like, oh, yeah, I had noticed you. How are you? And she said, I think we had your dog. Did you? Oh, you're fox terrier. And I was like, yeah, and then I just like, Oh, of course you did. Like, I want to tell you that we received him. And we we all we weren't sure if it was your dog. But she's like, I grew up in a farm. We had horses, pigs, he lived the best life he was with the little piggies and the pig pen. He was he had space to roam. We loved him so much. He lived a long and happy life. And he just he was a really happy dog. And we took really good care of him. And I was like,

Jami Rice 51:27

Oh my gosh, that is the best story ever. And for anybody who loves animals, which is I would venture to say most human beings. That's so touching. Oh my gosh, anytime it involves an animal, you just your heart breaks because they're so innocent. It's just like kids. You want nothing bad in this world to ever happen to an innocent animal, an innocent child and innocent. You know, anybody. I love that story. And I probably was your dog. That's insane, I

Collier Landry 51:59

believe was my dog. It wasn't probably, it was my dog. She's like, do you hear fox terrier? I said, Yeah. Like,

Jami Rice 52:04

that's it. That's amazing.

Collier Landry 52:05

It was so really it was it was really cool. But it's like, you know, you, you know, I, my whole life was in pursuit of making that film and telling that story. Right. It's still as I mean, obviously, I'm it's just this is the bike has just another version of this, right? And you know, the amount, you know, you talk about when this woman gets caught, right? And, and you see her doing the perp walk and people are like, Okay, you bet you're going to prison, you know, the amount of satisfaction that that gets people is just like, Okay, well, at least there's some sort of sense of justice. You multiply that times, you know, also with me being able to tell the story and having these unanswered questions. I look, I never my father would never admit why he killed my mother. And that was the literal reason why I did all this. I wanted answers. And then I realized that was and then I did a TED talk about this where the answer you seek is not the answer you need. And ended up being that I didn't need that, too. I didn't need that for closure. In fact, if I had, if I had gotten this sort of confession from him, I probably would have had more questions and come into that level of acceptance and self awareness and understanding. Okay, this is what this is. You know, I'm okay with this. And moving on, is is so key to your own mental health. I mean, this is mental health awareness month, right? And, but also, you know, being able to have those answers to those things that have always bothered you, or, you know, I was abandoned by my entire family and thrown into the foster care system. Both sides of my family were like, We want nothing to do with you. I was 11

Jami Rice 53:53

That blows my mind. absolutely blows my mind.

Collier Landry 53:56

You know, yeah, it's insane. And, but because of all that, and then the film and everything, I've discovered these new relatives of mine that were, you know, like, cousins, you know, on both sides of my family that we're always curious what happened to me? And we're always like, Why didn't anyone take this kid, but they know that the film comes out, they're like, Oh my God, here he is. And then they've discovered the podcast and they discover me on Tik Tok and then they're like, reaching out we're having these conversations that I'm getting to have this I mean, look, I was adopted into a great family and a big family and that was that was wonderful. Right? But amazing. Yeah, you able to to be able to have these reconnections with other family members. Was really is the I didn't even know that. We're like, we just want you to know that we didn't stop thinking about you. Yeah, well,

Jami Rice 54:51

that means a lot. So I'm sure yes. Yes. And again,

Collier Landry 54:57

those things have just you know it tying those loose ends in a lot of ways, opening these new doors and going, Oh, okay. Not everybody was bad in my we got fire trucks and

Jami Rice 55:14

we want your camera on I want to see what's going on. I'm just kidding

Collier Landry 55:22

it's one of those days, it's like every time you try to record I have neighbors moving in across the hall too. So that's

Jami Rice 55:25

fun. Oh, yeah, just add a little cherry on top a little, you know, least there's

Collier Landry 55:29

no construction, Lisa did all the hack song and drilling early. It you know, there is you know, and one of the reasons why I do my program is because I want people to know, because look, when I was in foster care, 12 years old, facing sort of staring down the barrel, the nature of my life, if you will, going, Okay, I'm testify like, my life is over either way. But if my father, if I don't want you to testify against my father to what I know is the truth. You know, let's say he gets off, well, I'm either going to be I'm probably gonna find myself in a ditch, or I'm going to be tortured the rest of my life, I came from an Italian Irish family, like he's Italian, you know, that they don't take particularly to kind to that betrayal in the family. So he's gonna ruin my life, or My life is ruined. And he goes to prison and still without a mother and a father. And I'm trying to figure out where and I have no family that wants me. So I gotta figure that whole thing out, right? Yeah, it's, you know, I guess what I do what I do, it's because I want to speak to that 12 year old kid, surely going, and that's why I made the film. And it was like, Okay, I'm gonna, I'm gonna do this to change my life. And to sort of put the final button on this chapter of my life, which I've worked up until this point to do, right. And then I want to speak to that one kid that's literally in the same situation, I am to let them know that it's gonna be okay. Yeah, they get through it. And yes, continually why I do all of this. And, you know, it's sort of that giving people you know, hope that the world isn't. As fucked as it is. And as big as it is, is still a beautiful and wonderful and amazing place. And like, yes, it gives you so many gifts, and not all people are created are monsters.

Jami Rice 57:24

Now. I still believe most people are good. Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah. And it's amazing, you know, you as a perfect example, it is absolutely just amazing what the human, what we're able to get the kind of trauma, the level of trauma that we're actually able to endure, and get through as human beings. I mean, you were a child, when the most unspeakable thing happened to you. And nobody, unless you've been in your shoes can even imagine how do you even recover from that, but you are a prime example of that. And we as human beings, it's amazing that we can get through something like that. And it's wonderful that you're doing this because there are other 12 year old boys and girls and children out there who've gone through these unspeakable tragedies, who are probably in the depths of despair, like what what is my life going to become? Who's going to help me through life? How am I going to survive this? So to see somebody who's actually done it and is doing it is is amazing for them? And I'm sure inspirational.

Collier Landry 58:31

I hope so. Yeah. Like I would imagine it is overwhelmed has to be that's the overdose to be banging. It makes you feel good. That's like, yeah, I love doing the podcast. I love so

Jami Rice 58:41

cool. And I think the more you talk about it, like you're not brushing it under the rug, and I everybody deals with this type of thing differently. And there is no right or wrong way. But I gotta believe that you talking about it has got to provide you with some level of additional healing each time you do. And you just talk it through with people and give your perspective and get their perspective, rather than brushing it under the rug. You're very open with it.

Collier Landry 59:08

So Jamie, in a way, you're you're sort of you're doing something with a situation that was traumatic for you. I mean, it might not be as devastating as a murder or things but that's a traumatic experience to go through and see your colleagues kind of go down in this this. Yeah. You know, and obviously murder ish, is deals with murderers and cases of that type of ilk, right? How do you sort of, and what do you find in ways that people cope and how do you cope with just hearing this over and over again, and really dissecting these cases? I'm sure you know, not every case gets to you. But I'm sure that when you're when you're discussing and researching, you know, you sort of delve into it. I spoke to Heather from big metro crime. Love Heather. Yes, she was like we started talking about Chris Watts and she goes yeah, I do a 10 parter. On I dealt through the 2000 pages of court documents that I read through, and I'm in and she's like, it's it's fun. Like, there's so much that people don't know. Like, how does that like, how did he know? This is what I asked Chris Hanson to with it with a pedophile. It's like, you know, it just, it's nonstop, let's say, you know, there's so much because it just keeps happening over and over again, there's no shortage of it. You sort of cope. How do you sort of move past when you read about these things and deal with them? I mean, you have children or? Yeah, I do. Yeah, Billy, and I'm sure there's things that Jill to you that you go cut. Why is this? The whole world fucked me? You know, what do ya process?

Jami Rice 1:00:38

It's really, it's like you said certain cases are much harder than others. Gabriel Fernandez was a little boy who was essentially, you know, if you're from LA, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. So I covered his case. And that case, will stick with me forever. And haunt me and I am not the only one, his case is just the absolute worst I've ever heard of the only solace that I can take from that, and maybe others feel the same way is that we learn something from it, he can never ever be brought back to this earth. And it's devastating to even think about that, but he deserves so much better. But, but we can learn from it. And it will not app, it will not prevent this from ever happening happening again, unfortunately, because the world is imperfect, and people are imperfect. And this, this probably will happen again. But if it even prevents one child from being overlooked by CPS and by others, then that it's that it's the only solace that you can take from Gabriel story is that people have seen it, they've heard it, and they will do a better job of protecting other kids in the future. I hope. That's one way that I cope. And the same thing, you know, when I cover a murder case, where a woman is in a, you know, domestic violence situation and ultimately is murdered by her partner, it happens, it really is intimate partner abuse really is an epidemic. And I can't explain it. Right it is. And I think the more we talk about it, the more other women who are in that situation. And of course, there are women listening to the podcast who are in that situation, because that's what statistics tell us is happening, that they can listen to it and go, Okay, I don't want that to be me. Let me take some steps to try and get out of this thing. I hope. You know, I hope because I have learned from listening to other True Crime podcasts, I have learned basic safety skills as far as like trying to just be a safer person, I'm a woman, so I am vulnerable. And I've learned ways to keep myself safer by listening to True Crime podcasts. So I gotta believe that us, you know, who are covering these cases is that at the very least, yes, people are listening for whatever reason, some people are in it for the gory details. Some people are not, but at least I hope that they're learning, especially, you know, kids who might listen to it. You know, my teenage daughter listens to True Crime podcast, I hope that she has learned something from it. Women who listen. So yeah, that's that's really the only solace that I can take. It's, it's, it's really hard sometimes. And I often have have to take a break from covering cases involving kids, because I have kids, and it really touches me. As I know, it does so many other people, but it's a very dark thing. And murder is a real thing that happens every single day, multiple times a day and I don't, you can't explain it. But that's how human beings are certain human beings are wired. It will continue to happen. But I do hope that people learn something from listening to all these true crime podcast. How to be safer.

Collier Landry 1:03:59

Yeah, for sure, by the way, I love your logo with the sugar skull.

Jami Rice 1:04:03

Oh, thank you so much. Yeah, that's one of my favorites. Yeah. That is so cool. I love sugar skulls.

Collier Landry 1:04:11

Yeah, it's very cool. My guest today is Jamie Reiss. She is the host of murderous podcast and her new and newest endeavor is dirty money moves podcast. Check it out, where she explores the consequences of financial violence and a case that is very personal to her. I highly recommend it. Jamie, thank you so much for your time.

Jami Rice 1:04:32

Thank you so much for having me. Caller glad I met you and I'm going to start listening to your show. Now. I started listening to one of the episodes and now I'm like, Okay, I've got to hear your whole story. So I'm glad we met and I appreciate you having me on your podcast. You're

Collier Landry 1:04:45

most certainly welcome. Glad we met too. I want to thank Jamie for being on the podcast and God doesn't she have a great voice? It's just like, it's like one of those made for just yeah, like podcasting. It's so cool. It's a good thing. She's doing that I'm I want to thank her for also sharing her new program dirty money moves, because I think it's, I think it's very fascinating. I also love, you know, for me and as I've said before, with my sort of journey into this true crime world, it's very personal for me. And to hear also, especially with this new program that Jamie is doing dirty money moves. How that is a personal story to her having worked at Bank of California and dealt with this woman. And when I talked about hutzpah earlier, you know, the McDonnell Douglas fortune, like that's a lot. You know, I think some of you guys have seen inventing Anna, which is a new series has come out or bad vegan, which was a, which was a docu series. It's interesting when these people pull these sort of pull these scams, and just, you know, I think that like when you're trying to pretend that you're someone else, in order to take advantage of people financially, I mean, it's horrible. And, you know, not to mention all the other potential things that could have happened with this, you know, Hollywood manager or agent wherever he was, you know, it's interesting. I think, again, for me, coming from a violent crime background, right, with the murder of my mother, me almost getting thrown probably right next to her and in her grave. I do feel that a lot of the time and I'm going to talk more about about financial crime and victimization. Because I'm, I do personally feel like in the current state of the world, like yes, murders and kidnappings, and rapes and whatever True Crime interesting serial killings are horrible things. I really feel like financial crime is almost worse, because I feel like it spawns all of that, if that makes sense. You know, if you're in a desperate situation with money, if you have all your money stolen, like by a Bernie Madoff or by this and McDonald's or Mary McDonald, I think that you that can, you know, spurn suicide and or just family abuse, familial abuse, spousal abuse, domestic violence, and then, you know, possibly killing arguments paths, I feel it's a very slippery slope to go down. And I think that, you know, programs like this, you know, with Jamie and her passion, having been sort of on the sidelines and seeing it happen play out in real life. You know, it's great to call attention to these things, and I hate I hate seeing people victimized of any crime or anything, really. But it's, it's interesting, it poses some questions, I'm going to have more people on to talk about this that have been victims of Ponzi schemes. I myself was one as well, but it played out differently than you might think. But yeah, I think that there is the there's a lot to be said and discussed on this issue. And I'm really cool with it. But you know what, it doesn't really matter what I think all the time. It matters what you guys think. So please, reach out via DMS, reach out, you know, I'm doing Instagram lives every Tuesday at 11am Pacific 2pm. Eastern, but I also am gonna start doing tick tock lives, I've randomly been doing them, but I'm going to get on a schedule with you guys. You can check it out there. You know, hit me up on the DMS email . I want to hear from you guys. I mean, it's now that more and more of you are joining the program and listening and supporting. There's a lot more of them to comb through and I do try to see every message guys I do try to respond as much as I can I do get them, you know, goes straight to me in my account. I try to respond as much as I can. But for those of you that adult, it might just mean i Run i do while I make this podcast happen and grow bigger and bigger. I do have a I am a filmmaker and I do have a career that I'm working on too. So but I thank you guys for the support and for reaching out because I listened and I read everything.

So on that note, I'm Collier Landry, and this is Moving Past Murder. Thanks y'all.

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