A Relentless Enemy Called Depression | with Unqualified Therapists

Every year depression will affect tens of millions of people across the globe. Many will find the strength and support to overcome it. Many will sadly lose their lives to it. Self-proclaimed "trauma queens" and hosts of the Unqualified Therapist podcast. Amy Baumgardner and Sarah Simone, have each had their own personal battles with depression. For Amy, it took her husband. For Sarah, it nearly took her. Along with Collier, the group discusses why depression was able to take such a hold over them, and then how they managed to triumph over it.

• We all have our own traumas we have to deal with. Some people come together and bond over their experiences, finding relief in sharing their stories with each other.

• Holding back the things that are troubling you and affecting you in life can make your problems drastically worse high down the road, as Amy shares.

• As Amy's husband was spiraling down into depression and mental disorder, she was doing everything she could to help him, but as we hear, sometimes everything isn't enough.

• The treatment programs available to Amy, Sarah and their loved ones failed them both in different ways. They believe their stories are probably more common than we know.

• What is your trauma, and how do you heal it? As Amy and Sarah discuss, you need an entire toolbox of options and resources to solve your problems.

Amy & Sarah's website: www.unqualifiedtherapists.com

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Amy Baumgardner 0:02

Thinking back to the idea that I had a choice I had to like either choose my kids or him because I don't think I think he was breaking even more and I feel like it could have gotten because I'm worse, it could have gotten violent. It could have gotten to you know, we joke like, Hi, this is like, I joke so much that I don't know I'm gonna offend anyone, but we used to say used to be like, it could have been a Dateline episode. Like I could have been that situation where his brain completely broke. And then we're all dead. So yeah,

Collier Landry 0:38

I don't doubt that. Yeah.

Intro Stinger

Testimony continued today in the most notorious criminal trial in Richland County history. Dr. John Boyle is accused of killing his wife, Noreen, and burying her body in the basement of his new home in Erie, Pennsylvania. The 12-year-old son finally took the stand. I heard a scream, I heard a thud. It was about this loud. We the jury find the defendant guilty. When I was twelve years old, my testimony sent my father to prison for murdering my mother. This podcast serves as a type of therapy and reconciliation for myself, and it is my hope that it helps anyone who has experienced deception, betrayal, and dark trauma. I’m Collier Landry, and this is Moving Past Murder.

Hey, movers welcome back to another episode of moving past murder. I'm your host Collier, Landry and what's going known? Yep, what's going on people another Friday. Thank you for tuning in. For those of you that are joining the show from finding me on Tik Tok, or Instagram or on YouTube, if you are on Youtube, please click like and subscribe and helps the algorithm. Thank you so much. blessed to be here another week. I've got a great episode in store for you guys. Today, I'm sort of deviating a little bit from my normal, you know, interviewing people with True Crime sort of trauma or true crime story or host of a true crime podcasts or whatever it might be, um, deviate a little bit into something that I feel is really personal for me, and that is mental health. And my guests today are Sarah Simone and Amy Baumgartner. And they have a podcast called unqualified therapists. And on their show, they are the self described trauma queens, shining light into the dark corners of life. We have a really great conversation is to hear from you guys. And to be honest with you, I talk about some issues that I've experienced in my own personal life. And I sort of discover a lot of

things that I never really knew about depression, clinical depression, non treatable, you know, medical depression. So I've been fortunate enough, even though I have been depressed about certain things to not experience clinical depression or untreatable depression. And in this episode, we really delve into these topics hardcore with these two extraordinary women who I'm going to interview and I was full disclosure on their podcast not too long ago, where they interviewed me about my story of my father murdering a mother and bringing to justice for my mother and my film of murder in Mansfield. And of course, this podcast moving past murder as you know. So, yeah. And full disclosure also, Amy Baumgarten and I are alumni of the Ohio University, Go Bobcats and our mutual friend Jesse introduced us, and I was blessed enough to meet her and then be able to program and of course, we have podcast. And so that's how this whole thing went. But before we get into the interview, I want to go to of course, this week's listener Comment Question message of the week, and this one comes from Jasmine on Twitter, and I was driving down to go visit my good friend Taryn Newell support her for her survivor event that she did with the red songbird Foundation. And that was on August 20, which is her six years survival date when she was attacked by dirty John Meaghan and she ended up taking his life in self defense. And so I was there to support her. And as I'm driving down the always jam packed traffic II, I 405 in Southern California, I get this message that pops up on Twitter from Jasmine and she says, Why looks to the past what now looks to the future at call your Landry, you just completely changed my life with that statement. Thank you for putting your story out there. It's helping so many people around the world. Thank you, Jasmine. So Jasmine is referencing a TED talk that I did. Back a few years back, and I talk about my unique approach to trauma, how I feel that when you are trying to reconcile what has happened to you or reconcile horrible events that happen to all of us, we've experienced pandemic 911 Things of that Nature war school shootings, what have you. There's plenty of traumatic events to reference here. We, as human beings tried to really understand why these things have happened. And I feel like in my own unique way of dealing with my trauma, one of the ways that led me through it is instead of saying, why did this happen to be why this happened to my mother, what has happened to my family, I decided to leave with action, saying What now, which was, for me, obviously, leading investigators to discover my mother's body buried and be buried beneath my father's house in Erie, Pennsylvania, leading, you know, the charge and, you know, getting him charged with murdering my mother, and of course, testifying in court. And he is still incarcerated to this day, as you guys know, made a film about a call to murder in Mansfield. I talk about it in this TED talk, you should check it out. It's available on my website, at call your landry.com. It's also available on the TED website ted.com. You can just type my name and you'll see it. Very proud of it, actually. And so when she popped his comment up, I was like, wow, the message really rings true. That's super cool. So thank you so much, Jasmine for giving me a shout out I really appreciate it. Speaking of shout outs, I want to give a shout out to all my Patreon subscribers and supporters that are joining my channel my Patreon. Thank you very much for your support. Your support helps keep the lights on on this program and if you have not had an opportunity to check out my Patreon, it is patreon.com forward slash call your Landry and there's lots of new content that is coming out I'm actually going back to Ohio to film some content for that and my Tik Tok channel which is at call your Landry on Tik Tok. So those are my shameless plugs but please if you can support helps keep the lights on to help make this program the program that it is and you know I'm doing this content to for you guys my audience because I want to give you quality content. So every little bit helps I thank you guys so much and I will not make your ears bleed another moment longer. Now to the episode My guests are the unqualified therapists, Sarah and Amy. I am pleased to welcome to the program today. Sarah and Amy from unqualified therapists podcast the self proclaimed trauma queens, welcome.

Sarah Simone 7:10

Thank you. Thanks for having us. We're excited.

Collier Landry 7:13

And I was obviously on your podcast last week. Yeah, so

Sarah Simone 7:17

yeah, we conversation. Ways ya know, it's up and out there. You guys should go listen to it. callers. insight on healing is very inspirational. We loved We love talking to you.

Collier Landry 7:31

So welcome to the program. Welcome to moving past murder. So I guess I want to so So Amy, I guess we should share how we know each other. Yes. Through our mutual friend Jesse Marsh. Yes. And Jesse and I went to college together. And

Amy Baumgardner 7:49

so did I. You guys just didn't know each other. So we're each other. Yeah. That's right. We're all there at the same time. In Athens, Athens, Ohio, and

Sarah Simone 8:02

I only applied to two colleges, one where I went Bethany college and to Ohio University.

Amy Baumgardner 8:08

So we could have

Sarah Simone 8:09

I could have been there too. But I didn't go

Collier Landry 8:12

look at all of us. We would have known each other and we could have we could have prepped ourselves. Well, I was already prepped, obviously. But we could have I could have prepped you guys and then we we could talk about starting a podcast years later. I need to do a podcast not to date so I don't even think podcasting was it they

Amy Baumgardner 8:28

were not they were not you know what was it was just NPR is This American Life was about all there was rock. Me too. I love both of those so much. I don't know Carter, I listened to them on the actual radio. Every Saturday know what that is? There's the radio radio folks.

Collier Landry 8:47

Right? And there was in what was the station for NPR in Athens because I listened to the one out of Ohio State. That's how I get my

Amy Baumgardner 8:55

honestly don't remember. I can think of it here but I can't think of it there. 90.5 here.

Collier Landry 9:01

It's a K it's some some K something. I'm sure I'm sure I'll remember it. But I do remember. And I didn't even think I listened. I listened to it like on the street radio. Not even internet radio. Right.

Amy Baumgardner 9:11

But that wasn't a thing either. Yeah. Do you remember the email that we had call your the, with the green screens? What was that? That was just green. It was all there was was email there. Like it was kept something like?

Collier Landry 9:26

Yes, yeah. And then you had to go and you can only go you had to go in the main hall? Yes. Right there on campus, which is across from the auditorium.

Amy Baumgardner 9:35

Yes, it was in, in the

Collier Landry 9:38

Baker Center. The Baker Center. Thank

Amy Baumgardner 9:40

you. That whole like it's interesting. I remember all this because it's a big scene in my book. So I had to go back and describe Baker Center and those emails and all of that stuff, because a lot of stuff happened there with my late husband. And so I remember the emails with the green screens and people like What do you mean you could just email I was like, that's it.

Collier Landry 9:59

I just I remember being really confused by it, like really like a login. Well,

Amy Baumgardner 10:04

they gave us an email and I was like, what's that?

Collier Landry 10:07

Yeah, electronic mail. And then I remember a friend of mine signed me up for Yahoo mail. And that's what I would use. That was the new stuff. And I but I was really confused. I mean, God, wow. Yeah. What?

Sarah Simone 10:23

Here's the real question, though. Do you still have your yahoo email address?

Collier Landry 10:27

I do. I don't ever use it. I don't think whenever somebody's

Sarah Simone 10:30

email address, and it's Yahoo, or it's Hotmail, I'm like AOL. Like, next

Collier Landry 10:37

x, I will get emails from people with a Netscape address. It still exists. Yep. And I also had somebody email me from a prodigy.net email address. Do you know what that is? You will remember prodigy used to get the CD ROM in the mail, and then you would slide it 6k Yeah, Prodigy net.

Sarah Simone 11:02

Wow, we're back. We just cleaned out my mom's house. She passed away last October and she was a hoarder. And so we were in the den and I found this booklet and it was like, 400 hours for free America Online.

Collier Landry 11:19

I feel like you could sell that as like a relic on eBay. i You should I should. Yeah. Get this. I'm struck gold. Gen Zers. Love all things from our generation. Yeah. Like I just directed it or just shot a music video. And they they sent over the references and they're like, Okay, so I want to do I want it to look like Britney Spears slave for you. Across with dirty with Christina Aguilera. Oh my god. And I'm like, wow. And then this girl who I just met the other day, she had on these really cool wide leg jeans, which are very in right now. high waist wide leg jeans, massive rips in them, but they had the they had the dye the same dye pattern as the Levi's sport jeans. And I said, Do you guys remember the sport jeans? You have to remember

Sarah Simone 12:09

they were like stonewash? Right? Yeah, they were like the stonewashed.

Collier Landry 12:14

And I And they looked like Levi's sport jeans the way they were cut. And I was like, You don't know anything about this. But sport jeans. Were the shit.

Sarah Simone 12:22

They were the shit.

Amy Baumgardner 12:24

I just haven't we become the old people is what I want to know.

Sarah Simone 12:29

And here we are.

Collier Landry 12:30

We're not old. Like I don't I am not resigning. Like I literally have not either. pm to God on my mother's eternal soul. She was on the phone with her yesterday. And she was talking about a casting. And she goes, I don't know if you saw our age, our age, or what our age range was. And I just I wanted to make sure we know we cap off at 30. And I said, Yeah, so but your top end is 45. And she goes Yeah, but it's 30. So as a Okay, cool. So one said, Are you Are you implying that I am under Do you think that I'm under 30? And she's well, I don't know. I've only met you once. I don't really know. I mean, I think so. I was like, Oh, God bless you. God

Amy Baumgardner 13:15

bless. Yeah, great stuff. Like that happens. So great. So great. It's just a it's just you know, met Yeah, for days. Weeks. Yeah, I run off with that

Sarah Simone 13:25

card me all day long. Yes, pretty.

Collier Landry 13:27

Girl. I did a girl like two months ago, she was standing in my kitchen. And she goes well, how old are you? So how do I look to you as well? 32. Just to Jen's ear. Oh, anyways.

Sarah Simone 13:41

We have Gen Z children. That's how old Amy and I are. You're the same age. So I can't say that. I can't I can't slam our age without slamming you. And I'm not slamming you.

Collier Landry 13:51

I shouldn't Z children. Yep. Oh, it's a thing. Oh, boy. Yeah, on that note. So now that we know we all know how we know each other. We all use the DARPA net version of Ohio State Ohio University version of the DARPA net. Why don't you guys sort of tell me I know that you both have similar but different stories, obviously. But how you came to start your podcast on qualified therapist.

Sarah Simone 14:24

Well, as you said, we are self proclaimed trauma queens. We wear that as differently than some people it comes across in two ways people are like that see close to drama queen. I don't like it. But we were it is like a badge of honor. We wear our crowns proudly that we have been able to come out the other side of some pretty tough shit. And can we swear on here? Yes. I've listened to your podcast. I don't know. But I can't remember. I was like, I can't remember if I've heard any, any casting. Okay.

Collier Landry 14:52

I'm trying to tone it down, but it's you know.

Sarah Simone 14:55

Okay. So we'll try to keep it on the lower end. I don't know. I'm

Collier Landry 15:02

George Carlin's like flagship pest con.

Sarah Simone 15:04

Oh, yeah, exactly. Get a ball out of the way right now. Okay. Yeah. So it just a very brief overview. You know, I've I've seen with my own eyes, two people pass away in front of me. One was a childhood friend when we were eight years old. And I watched her be revived, tried to be revived from drowning, and she died there at the scene. I've lost, my brother was killed in a car accident. My dad died from colon cancer, I was not there for either of those. And then my mom passed away, like I said, about 10 months ago, from a heart attack. And I was with her in the ICU when she passed. We started this podcast before she left us but and I'll let Amy tell her side of things, but we just sort of, were we were, we were in my living room. This is my favorite part. And we were doing what we do best. And that was making light of our situations and kind of joking about our rough spots. Because when you trauma bonds, kind of like we did, and you know, you have this like connection, you feel like you can be yourself and you feel like you can say the things that make other people uncomfortable to one another. And we were just like laughing our asses off. And he's like, we should have a podcast. So that was like, oh my god, we should have a pod that was just the sort of like, thing that came out of just like one really fast sentence that came out of Amy's mouth. And that was a white cloth. We started a bunch of white claws involved, of course, you know, because we're a basic white bitches. And we just started planning that, like, right away, you know, and dove into what that was going to look like. And pretty quickly, I think was like two months later, we

Amy Baumgardner 16:58

were on it. Yeah. Yeah, we. So my, my late husband and I had planned on doing a podcast. It was actually on a man who had gone missing a college student had gone missing and Ohio State and we had done all the prep for it, we were doing it. And we never got to finish it because we never got to finish anything. My husband had bipolar disorder, we were married for 17 years. And we have two children together. And it was just a very tumultuous ride, I guess. And I feel like I never really was able to like, settle down. Because I was constantly waiting for the next manic episode, I was waiting for all of these things. And when someone who you love so deeply, is so sick and becomes a different person. Totally because of this illness, it just puts a whole nother twist on how you're going to handle it. So I just I knew right then I wasn't ever leaving. And so we were going to get through this. On top of that when I was a freshman at ODU I was diagnosed with depression and anxiety and an eating disorder and it continued on so I was dealing with all of that. He was later diagnosed with bipolar disorder. And so though the the system failed, both of us pretty severely in terms of hospitalizations and help. Whenever we needed it. It wasn't there and I kept it a secret so I lived in complete secret with all of this for so so long. And that's the big part of the podcast for me is that had I spoken out had I shared it with someone had I was too scared and I was rightly scared because the world has shown me that when you do tell the truth about mental illness, they don't like it because it scares them. But what Sarah and I do is we just say it anyways and we say the things that nobody wants that wants to say want to say but they're too scared to say and so hoping that we can normalize and we can break down the stigma that surrounds scary illnesses, you know, apparently, you know, scary illnesses or like you know, the bipolar disorder because it was scary. It did get violent there was things that were not controllable. So I lived in secret for so long in fact, another part of sarin eyes journey is that she knew me before all of this and had no idea she just thought Scott and I were like the best couple really like because we outwardly we were pretty fucking incredible. But inside you know closed doors it was it was another story so I I just don't want anyone to ever have to live like that. I don't want anyone to have to live in secret. And then after my husband passed, he did end up going out west for a 30 day treatment center. It was his last like, I guess Hurrah and turn in trying to become better Are and then he never came home, he ended up dying by suicide. And while he was out there so, you know, after that happened, I think that Sarah and I just looked at each other, and we were like, This is bullshit. I can't I really, I couldn't live any more like that I could not live in authentically, I wasn't going to live in secret anymore. And I didn't want other people to suffer in secret. And so if we had to say the shit that was gonna get us fired, get us to lose friends, which all of these things, you know, happens. People don't like us, okay, fine, but I'm helping the person that's DMing me on the down low. And you have no idea who that is. I'm never going to tell you, but I'm helping them by saying this stuff out loud. By putting it out there by telling them no, you're not alone. It's like, you the system's fucked. And I believe that deserves the F. Okay. And it's, you know, loving someone so deeply who is tormented so much, and you can't help them is a scary, scary, scary road. And to do that by yourself. It's just so hard. And I just remember when he died being at his celebration of life and just being pissed the fuck off at everyone. I was like, Where were you? Like, where were all of you. And I'm, like, my big joke was like, when someone dies, they bring you food. Well, when he was having a manic episode, and I couldn't get them from the hospital to here and do all these things. I would have really loved a casserole, because I couldn't feed my kids. I couldn't take care of my kids. I nobody to watch that, you know, all of these things. And so I don't know, I just feel like by us putting all of this out here and just saying the ugly truths of things and the things that we keep secret. Yeah, that we can sort of start normalizing it. Right. Yeah. Yeah.

Collier Landry 21:48

And have a sense of humor about it. Well,

Amy Baumgardner 21:52

I mean, that is so so big for us. We are we do not take ourselves too seriously at all, to a fault sometimes, maybe. But again, we're not for everyone. We are not for everyone.

Collier Landry 22:06

It's interesting. And I think we talked about that in my episode. But you know, it's interesting, because sometimes people will lash out and excoriate you for having a sense of humor about these things, or how can you say that I can do this? And like, the fuck do you expect me to do, like right here and just curl up into a ball? And just like bizarre hard? Well, yeah, like, it's still hard. It's still, it still is not without its challenges. And this is like, you know, this is your way of coping. And, you know, like, Screw you guys, like, deal with what we were dealing with. And then you can talk, you know, it's always the peanut gallery as most comments and stuff like that. I do want to comment on something that you said. And this would be something that I would be embarrassed to admit. So I quit drinking on November 5 2020. And unfortunately, the last beverage that I put in my mouth was a lime white claw, which is probably enough to turn someone off of white claws because it's God awful. So I would I would say that that was the final straw. But yes, yes. You mentioned white, like loving the genesis of the genesis of the podcast, I just find that very funny and ironic. No, but in all seriousness, you know it. I feel like being able to come from a place of authority and break down barriers is so key. And this is one of the amazing things that podcasting has been able to do. Right, it sort of levels, the playing field, in a lot of ways, and also it allows you to take I mean, I think, you know, you talk about the system, right? So you when you refer to that, are you saying that just basically the sort of the stigma of mental health and being ill in those ways, like bipolar disorder? It causes a lot of prejudice.

Amy Baumgardner 24:09

Yeah, I would say there were there's two I think it's twofold. I think that Scott had always kept that a secret from his employers, because we knew that that would end his job there. But his mania and manic episodes caused him to get fired because I mean, the stories I could tell you that he did, but I think he spent three weeks in a Panera pretending to be at work was still emailing from his email at work. I was like, Dude, what the hell has happened? Like just crazy, crazy things. So Yeah.

Collier Landry 24:38

Were you aware of that? What was happening or no, no. So

Amy Baumgardner 24:41

so there's part of it where? I think he was trying to hide it. I think also he was part of the illness was he was a pathological liar. He really did lie about everything to cover up, you know, and his big thing is he just didn't want to disappoint me but it was just, it was hard not to because he couldn't stop himself from from himself. You know, and so you know, we we joked in his times of health that he was going to get tattooed on his like arm that said, trust her, because when he became manic, he would not go to the hospital, he would not do the things that we knew we needed to do. We that we got his psychiatrists gave him these, like really heavy sleeping pills. And so he was supposed to sleep for like three days. And if he slept, he could like cut it like it could break the cycle. But he refused to take them and instead was stay up for two weeks on end and be all different places. And I'd have to send the police out to get them. And there was just a lot of things. And the police do not know how to handle mental health at all, therefore, it ended with my husband having a felony, because it was just a really bad situation, then that affected when he came out of that episode that affected his life afterwards, in

Collier Landry 25:58

terms of the assault like an officer, is that what happened?

Amy Baumgardner 26:02

So and we're going to use some little humor here, okay. All right, everyone. So and I say this because my husband laughs at this story. He told this story all the time. It's just part of what happens when you're sad when you have psychosis. So he was in the hospital after a very long week of not sleeping and being all over this thing.

Sarah Simone 26:22

Can we pause for justice? Yeah. Because I think this is something so being someone who didn't experience this like, and hearing it from your your perspective, I just think it's important that people know that. When Scott was healthy, he was himself. Yes. And he could think rationally and could, you know, recount stories and do things in just a, I hate to using the word normal. It's always like the hardest use word to use. I don't like it, because it's like, what,

Collier Landry 26:53

what the hell was was normal? Right.

Sarah Simone 26:56

But in a more conventional way,

Amy Baumgardner 26:58

function? Yeah. No idea. You would have no clue. You would just think like, I want this man to be my best friend, because he's fucking hilarious. And so it's great. And all of these things. Yeah. So

Sarah Simone 27:08

I knew me for two years before I knew that any of this was going on in her life.

Collier Landry 27:13

So it wasn't like it was apparent.

Sarah Simone 27:15

Right? Well, I it was apparent to everyone good. But she hit it. I weren't hit it. That was I worked so hard. So I think it's just important for people to know that when he was not well, and he was in a manic episode, he wasn't the same person. This was not Scott. This was Scott's illness. So I just I had because that was something that I didn't realize. And that was like I learned by learning about bipolar disorder through you and through your story with Scott. So I just

Amy Baumgardner 27:43

kind of No, I definitely appreciate that. And so when he comes out of it, and he can have these conversations with me and relate to me what happened in those seven days, he didn't remember all of it, but he would remember some of it. And he was like, Amy, he was like, it was awful. Like, I was laying in the hospital. And I had 302 with him, which is the worst thing to have to do to someone you love the worst thing.

Collier Landry 28:04

So 302 is different than 5150. Is that correct? Is 5150. For me, that's a California thing is when they they come in and they hold you for 72 hours against your will.

Amy Baumgardner 28:17

So it's the same thing. It's the same thing. Okay. Yeah. So it must just be different in different states. Got it. So

Collier Landry 28:24

I tried to 5150 me by the way,

Amy Baumgardner 28:27

I can't I want to hear this. That's a whole nother story. But I do want to stalker, but so, so he here's how he related, he related as that he was in the hospital and he had the police had taken them there because I had the police take him there because he was thinking about jumping in the river. Because it coincided with the podcast, we were going to record the stories in his brain. It was so fragmented, he got this, this man's story confused with his own story. And so he was like, I just I think I'm him. I think I'm him. And so he wanted to try. He was like, I think that he's in the river at Ohio State. And I think that's what happened. So I'm going to jump in and I don't even know. But so he's laying there. Naked. I don't know why he was naked. But he's laying in the hospital with like, oh, he probably had like a hospital gown. But he said he got up. And because he was paranoid and freaked out these people. He didn't know who they were what they were doing to him. Sure. So he gets up, rips off the hospital gown and takes the Wet Floor sign that he says as Scott said to cover my junk, and ran and took off like just freakin took off outside the hospital and down the path. And I said Where were you going? He was like, I was going to 51 which is like, I was like, Yeah, that's a road. What are you doing? So he just took off because he just in his brain. All he wanted to do was get away from these people because he felt like they were going to harm him. And so they finally tackled him and then the way they tackled him that was a big guy ended up meeting him at the court later on, put his hand over his nose and his mouth, as he was sitting on his back, and he couldn't breathe. And then he got even more paranoid. So he bit the man's hand. And that's where felony charge. And that's what the felony charge was for. So.

Sarah Simone 30:21

So when we say systems are broken, that's part of it.

Amy Baumgardner 30:24

That's part of it. Part of it is getting a stay in the hospital is nearly impossible. And Sarah can tell you a whole different story on her end, I've had, you know, I think we tried like 10 times to get a mistake, maybe he was able to stay for you have to be you have to say certain things, you have to get a bed, there's just not enough beds. And then once you get in your psychiatrist isn't able to communicate with this. Hospital psychiatrists. So those things, not being able to work together, he always got on weird meds, and they just basically drugged him up to the point where he was comatose. So there just wasn't this idea of like, I'm going to help you be better. The hospital always told me, You're here for 72 hours, so you don't die. If you want to go back out to the parking lot and try to die by suicide, again, we'll bring you back in for another 72. But we have no ability to actually help you. And that's what they told me. So we just did round for round for round of this. And that's what I mean when the system is broken. And so I would be doing all of these things, while working while taking my kids take care while trying to figure all this out. Like while teaching children I'm on the phone on the other in the hallway with the police, like it was living these two lives was I don't even know it was like, it was exhausting. Yeah. I don't know if that answered your question.

Collier Landry 31:49

No, but very informative, though. And and so I guess, you know, I've had I had a mother's best friend, well, I don't really want to expose this person. But I had a friend who was bipolar. And I just remember when she would go through manic phases, it would be just the house would be a mass and it would be just couldn't get out of bed and that type of thing. I had I had a girl that I dated that was bipolar, and she would have the same thing everything when she stopped showering. She would she would she was stopped showering, she would the house would be a mass she wouldn't eat those types of things. Right. And but this this is it sounds like a whole other level? And is the psychosis because of the bipolar? Or is the so called psychosis caused by the lack of sleep?

Amy Baumgardner 32:46

Which came first the chicken or the egg? Right? I don't know. Yeah, God. I think I wonder if you know, any of us not sleeping for three, four days straight would probably have some sort of psychosis? I think I would think so. Yeah. But the bipolar makes you and I'm what you're talking about with these other people that's manic depressive. He had that too. So that was next. So you would have a high and then we would do the not showering not sleeping, not eating, leaving the bed. So we had both sides of it. It was just that the the manic High was more?

Sarah Simone 33:23

What's destructive, thank

Amy Baumgardner 33:24

you. It's like I got to girl, destructive, it was more destructive. You know, 10s of 1000s of dollars. You know, he there's that whole idea of like believing that you are Jesus? Or that the there's like people after you in your phone, that sort of stuff.

Collier Landry 33:46

Got it. Yeah. Legit. Psychosis.

Amy Baumgardner 33:50

Yeah. And it gets from my experience. And I like to say this because again, unqualified therapists over here, from my experience, the breaks got worse over time. So his brain just kept breaking and breaking and breaking. So each episode was worse than the last.

Sarah Simone 34:06

And that is a like a scientifically proven thing with mental illness is the more episodes you endure in any mental illness, the harder it is to escape them, so the more frequent they can become, and then the more intense they can become when you experience them. So it's, it's what makes it difficult. And, you know, Scott shared that he felt like his brain was a tornado and a hurricane, whipping pieces around with different puzzle pieces from different puzzles trying to fit together that just didn't fit and that's what it was like inside of his brain and he just wasn't something he could endure any longer.

Collier Landry 34:44

So he was so he was just trying to piece together. So think so tasks, like going to the grocery store and getting milk become this sort of it It becomes like this disjointed adventure that he might be going out. And then he gets confused, would he get confused? So

Amy Baumgardner 35:09

it would depend on his time, right? So if he was back in his normal stage or you know, being Scott, he would go to the grocery store, make us gourmet meals, take care of the kids do all of these things, right. But if he was manic, he would probably more than what you're saying he would find a friend or a bunch of friends, and decide that they're going to like go on a trip together. And I mean, my friend, I just mean someone standing outside the gas station, like he would do that would be more like that. It would be more of this feeling of like big ideas, huge ideas, like, and just really trying to like explain to people the ideas and getting pissed off when they can't understand what he was saying. But he really wasn't making sense in explaining these ideas. So it'd be more of that it'd be more like,

Collier Landry 36:01

like trying to relate to the guy in the podcast by jumping me all in tangy, which would make no sense to people. But to him, it made sense, right? Yes,

Amy Baumgardner 36:09

exactly. He thought if he felt if he did that, then he could understand him. And maybe we could break the case, I don't even know it was it was pretty intense.

Sarah Simone 36:21

And they were triggered by certain things too. So it's not like he would just like you said go to the grocery store and like flip a switch. So it would be like if his friends were like, Let's go out and party and then have him stay up till 345 In the morning haven't stay up all night. That's a trigger,

Amy Baumgardner 36:36

like so like that was really a partier. But he did enjoy his nerdy games, Magic the Gathering, he played a lot. And so they would stay up all night and they love to go to tournaments and get caught con something I don't know, I'm terrible at this stuff. One of those game things, gaming things, conventions,

Collier Landry 36:53

gone. So magic cons, some sort

Amy Baumgardner 36:57

of con something, something and play. So those would be a trigger. Stress about money would be a trigger, and it broke his heart because he couldn't bring any money in. So I work three to four jobs while he stayed home with my daughter. And you know, I would say like 75% of that he was like the best dad ever. And then 25% Poor Lilly was like four years old and couldn't wake them up. So they could go to preschool, you know, that sort of thing. So, but 75% He was like, data the year. So you know, I mean, I think that it was just it was so disjointed. And there were so many sides to it. And there was so much Secret, secret secrecy, so much secrecy that I lived in. Yeah, secrecy. Why did that sound like a weird word? Anyways, secrecy that I lived in, and I felt like I just lived two different lives. And that was That was weird. And I feel like it's just not fair. You shouldn't have to do that. If you have someone who's suffering like that, like it just being scared. The public being scared of this doesn't make it better. Like, let's talk about it. Let's try to like reform things or let's be there for each other or whatever it is. So, you know, a lot of times my friends was just get really upset if I was honest with them that I just didn't leave. And I wasn't I just told them I was like, I'm not doing that. Like I'm just not leaving until I had a breaking point everybody has a breaking point I had a line and so yeah,

Collier Landry 38:37

she was that where you were when he went to treatment in you said Arizona

Amy Baumgardner 38:43

or should he go he was in New Mexico, which died in Arizona. That is where I was. There. This is like a really, really hard part for me because

I just felt like I had to choose between my kids and him. I would have followed him to the top of the parking lot. If I'm going to be real honest with you. That's how much I loved him. My kids though. The last time he was chasing me around the house in his manic episode like trying to I don't know what he was even your brain. He's like, You're not listening to me. You're not listening to me. I have this idea, this idea of just being really like, in my face and a little bit like, you know, abusive in a way and my little son was only one years old and he was like tottering around. He's like hitting me. He's like, No, Daddy, no, you know, like, I was like, There's no fucking way my son is gonna think this is how you treat women. And then my daughter is upstairs, who her dad is her best friend and she just loves him so much, but she's locked in a room with food because she's scared. So at that point, I was like, I can't like I have to pick my children, our children and I knew once he came to that he would also agree that that was the best idea core choice, all of these things. So, yeah, so that unfortunately, the 30 day treatment program didn't work because he was also just very good at talking his way out of things. So he's very smart man. Like, genius, smart. And so he was able to get out of things. And he he was still in psychosis when he left his paperwork showed that, but and then he lived out in New Mexico for a couple of months, got a job made new friends, best friends. They knew each other for like, two weeks. But anyways, and and then I'm not sure what he was doing in Arizona. I really don't. I tried to play detective Jesse and I actually went out there to retrieve his body and to see where he died and to talk to the police. And we tried to figure it out. And we just couldn't put the pieces together. All I know is he was to the baseball game the day before.

Collier Landry 40:57

So you had been so you were totally separated at that point.

Amy Baumgardner 41:00

We were separated? Yes.

Collier Landry 41:03

So it's a lot. When you went out there with Jessie to retrieve the body. What was that? Like? Was there was there? You know, was there the closure was there? I mean, what does that look like? I mean, because look, you're not the only person who's struggling with this, obviously. Yeah. This is a reality for so many people. Yeah. And again, what do you do when you love someone like this? And what do you do when you have a family? Did you almost feel relieved?

Amy Baumgardner 41:53

No. No? Not at all. I've only felt relief since um, you know, I'm not sure where everybody stands, you know, in your audience about belief on mediums. But like, I've been seeing a medium and really spoken to Scott through that. And I've only felt relief since then. And hearing from him about what happened, why it happened. And how there was just no, it, he couldn't do it. It just it was his he was so broken that he just couldn't so now, but that is not where I was when I went to Arizona. When I went to Arizona, I was in shock. And I, I don't know. I mean, like Jessie can recount it better than me, because to me, it's all a blur. But I was insistent on seeing every step of it. I wanted to see the parking garage at the airport, I wanted to see like, where he jumped where he fell. I wanted to see the footage, I wanted to watch the footage 1000 times, I went to see his body. Because honestly, there was a moment, a big moment where I thought it was a joke. Like I thought like he was like, That's just how he was. And so I thought like he would like, because all they had was his license. So I thought, oh my gosh, he totally gave his license to somebody else. And this is a joke until I saw his body, obviously. And then at that point, it became real. And, and I just, I don't know, I didn't just he'll tell you I didn't want to leave, she had to basically like, forced me to go because I was like, I'm just kind of asleep right here. And so, you know, it was really hard to because I hadn't seen him in, I don't know, five months, something like that. So I guess there was closure there. I don't really know that when someone dies like that. So suddenly, it's so much of a blur. And you don't really I don't recall, like every specific detail. But I think that it was important to me to see everything and to try to understand and try to put the pieces together and try to figure it out. And then it wasn't until years later that I realized it didn't matter. Like that was the it just doesn't matter to even try to do the research. And that's when I was able to stop going through his phone. I think I went through his phone every single night from like, midnight to three or four in the morning for months and months and months, like trying to like maybe I missed one thing or to see his journals. And the other thing was really hard is that when they are in these spaces, they're super, super mean to the people they love the most. And so his last journals that he had on him when he died are some really awful things written about me. And since then, he's told me that you know, that was not him that wrote that and to let go of that. But you so you know, there there was there was that idea of like, I totally failed you. You know my only job in life. I worked for 17 years to keep you alive and then the Like if I didn't do it, and but I come back to the idea that I had a choice and I had to like either choose my kids or him. Yeah. Because I don't think I think he was breaking even more, and I feel like it could have gotten

Unknown Speaker 45:15

could have gotten worse. It could have

Amy Baumgardner 45:17

gotten violent. It could have gotten to, you know, we joke like, I'm sorry, this is like, I joke so much that I don't know, I'm gonna offend anyone, but we used to say used to be like, it could have been a Dateline episode. Like it could have been that situation where his brain completely broke. And then we're all dead. So yeah,

Collier Landry 45:34

I doubt that. Yeah. So hey, movers, I just want to take a moment out of this week's program, just to give a shout out and talk about my friends, Jamie, BB and Jake DevTool. And their podcast, strictly stalking. They have a great podcast, and I was fortunate enough to be on it. And they are really, it's funny, because they are sharing some really harrowing stories from survivors of stalking cases. And as someone who has been stalked, and has really seen it taken effect on me, in my personal life, my professional life, I just love what they're doing. And they're so authentic, and they're so genuine about it. And they really just you as a survivor, not only of true crime, but of stalking and, and working with so many people who are also survivors, it is a really important thing to give those people a voice and let them tell their story in their own way with their own narrative. And that's what Jamie and Jake do when you listen to the program. I mean, they don't hardly say anything. They are just literally letting the survivors share their story through their eyes on what they went through. It is a fantastic program. Check them out on podcast one, it is called strictly stalking and check out my episode to start strictly stalking with Collier, Landry and surviving a murder of Mansfield I think that's what the episodes called, I don't know. Anyways, check them out strictly stalking over at podcast one, they're great friends of the program, and they're doing some great stuff. It's such a you it's just interesting, just the brief time that I've spoken to you again, I have friends and obviously I guess I was thinking of manic depression versus bipolar. But, you know, I've had friends have told me they thought they were so you know, I don't know, but this with the level of psychosis, you know, you off, you know, we talk a lot about in this country. Or at least we're starting to, or we recognize what we don't do anything about is probably the more accurate way to describe it, is, you know, with homeless and and lashing out on people. And, you know, and then you see things where, you know, alcoholism is involved where, you know, they enter, you know, an alcoholic psychosis, whatever it's called Wilkes Barre Syndrome or something like that. Where you, that might not be the right term, but basically where the brain just becomes fractured, but that's from substance abuse, right. And from denatured alcohol and, you know, fermented alcohol that just causes the psychosis in your brain, but, but we see that and what I mean. And here you have somebody that you've been with you guys were together what you said 17 years at that point.

Amy Baumgardner 48:22

Well, you're married 17. So we've been together like 19 years, yeah,

Collier Landry 48:26

19 years. And this is someone that you can't you that loves you and knows you you have two children together, and that they can't break that psychosis, or make that separation of this is my wife, this is the person I love. This is the mother of my children, right. I guess when you when you talk about these things on the podcast, or when you talk to other individuals that are experiencing this, are there ways to break through this? Because obviously, it seems like you exhausted all your resources to Wait, what was the answer? Let

Amy Baumgardner 49:06

me let Sarah take that one.

Sarah Simone 49:08

So we've talked about this a lot. And so, so I come from the opposite side of things. I'm not the caretaker. I'm the sufferer, I guess I don't know we both suffer. We all suffer, right? We all suffer from something. But I have I have been diagnosed with treatment resistant to major depressive disorder. So I've tried, you know, close to 10 medications for depression. And I have been I haven't I don't suffer manic episodes or anything like that. But I suffered deep depressive episodes to the point where I don't get out of bed for months at a time. I don't shower. I don't clean my house. I don't my kids you know, it's it's heartbreaking because so my husband jokingly asked the kids a couple of days ago, What's What's mommy and daddy's thing? Like what's our thing and I was like, Please don't ask them that. Like I immediately got I was like, I know this is not going to be good and My oldest said, Oh, mommy's thing is sleeping. And I just broke down. And I just started to cry because I thought, That's how my kids see me. They just see me as this broken person who can't take care of themselves. You know, I'm very blessed to have the support team that I have with Randy, it was my husband and with Amy. You know, I feel bad. I'm like, putting me through this all over. But, you know, who are there to support me and, you know, my husband's an amazing person, he does all the cooking and all the cleaning, and he takes care of our children. Because there are times when I say times, I mean months on end, where I just, I can't do it. I can't even take care of myself. And so when we say like, is there a way to break it? I don't know. I've tried so much. But I mean, therapy is an amazing tool. Absolutely. But when you I don't suffer from the same things that Scott suffered from, you know, I don't suffer from psychosis, I don't suffer from Mitiga episodes. So I can't speak to that, what I can say is that I have found something and I don't I hesitate to share here because, you know, you've shared that you have stopped drinking and, and, you know, there's substances involved. And so, you know, the what I have found is actually doing a psychedelic therapy session. And so I,

Collier Landry 51:31

oh, you can you can share that. Okay. This is because it just wasn't working for me, I am all about, you know, that was actually going to be something I was going to lead into. So this is great that you're going

Sarah Simone 51:43

awesome. Okay, cool. So actually, you know, it's not legal here. And this is to go back to systems broken, the systems are broken, because the only thing that's legal here in Pennsylvania is for me to do ketamine therapy, which to me was just not an option. You know, I have major depressive disorder, which also kind of and I don't know if these things go along together, if it's a chemical imbalance in itself, that also puts me into the realm of having an addictive personality. And so I was not willing to do something like ketamine to risk getting having an addiction to something like that. And because you have to do multiple sessions of it for it to get its full affectivity I just wasn't it wasn't something I could risk doing. And so I

Collier Landry 52:32

that's a bad team. I had so he was detected Academy. That's a bad yeah,

Amy Baumgardner 52:36

it's about it is but yeah, with that, being the only thing legals tried it too. And he was wasn't able to do all the sessions that you had to do to make it work

Sarah Simone 52:45

well. And not only that, but like, this is where the things where these types of things. It's like, there is not a perfect science, and there's nothing out there. It's like, for someone like Scott, is there something to help? I don't know. Because these types of things like psychedelic therapy are not an option for people with psychosis, because they can in turn your trigger a psychotic episode. Sure. You know, so it's, it's not an option for them. So it's unfortunate because I experienced such relief from this. And I feel like a completely different person. I did it in May, at the end of May. And since then, this is psilocybin therapy. I did psilocybin therapy. Yes. So I went to Canada, I went to Vancouver, Canada, and I was like, You know what? I'm finding somebody who can do this, and it's legal there. And so I did. I started with Cambo first, which was a frog poison that makes you purge everything out. And so it was like, like the

Collier Landry 53:42

Bufo Oh, that is frog. Yeah, it's the same thing. Okay. Yeah. Call it here in California. I have several friends that have tried this. Yeah. With it.

Sarah Simone 53:52

Yeah. I will never do it again.

Amy Baumgardner 53:56

I'm skipping that part. I'm going straight to the dive and I don't think I can

Sarah Simone 54:00

barf like that. I could do it again, actually, like, you know, it's one of those things where it's like, you know, you think back and in the moment, you're like, Nope, never do this again. But then you know, enough time passes, and you're like, Okay, I could probably do that again. But it was I had been holding on and you know, our bodies hold that stuff. And if we don't get rid of it, and if we don't release it and get it out of ourselves, it can be very destructive. And that's where I was, I was just in this very destructive place of suicidal ideation. I thought, I genuinely believed that my friends and family were better off without me. I did not belong on this planet. They need I would bring nothing but relief by taking my own life. That is that was what was in my heart.

Amy Baumgardner 54:43

I believed that so even after being with me through all of that she truly truly believe that and I remember looking at her and be like, you fucking can't like no. And she still was like, No, it's just going to be better.

Sarah Simone 54:56

You'll be better like you will be better my kids will be better my heart Isn't won't be better, everyone will be better off. Because I felt like this burden, I felt like the 5000 ton thing on the shoulders of everyone around me, because that is what mental illness does to you, it lies to you. Your thoughts are not facts when it comes to things like that. And these are lessons that I've been able to learn and to be able to see through psychedelic therapy, you know, it's this thing that just basically lifts the veil, and you can see your life for what it truly is. You're not seeing it from that made up narrative that you have in your brain where you're telling yourself all of these things that you're not worthy that you're a burden, that life would be so much better without you, you're seeing things for the way that they truly are. And if it's if you think about the person you love most in this world, and you think about them, saying those things about themselves, and how much that hurts, and you it's makes you feel like almost like angry and sick. And it's like, no, why would you think this about yourself? Doing this therapy session allowed me to see me like that, which I'd never been able to do before. And so for me, that was my healing space after years of therapy and medication after medication after medication that just didn't work. And please like, I want to make very clear, I'm an advocate for medication because it works for some people. It's just that I had I have treatment-resistant. Major depressive disorder. Yeah. So for me, that's not something that works for me. For others, though, it is an absolute options. And it works. Yeah. So I just want to make clear, I'm not like against medication or anything like that. It's just that that wasn't it wasn't an option for me. So when you when you say like, is there a way to break through this? Is there a way to break it? For some? Yes, I think for some, no, I don't. And that's the sad reality of it.

Amy Baumgardner 57:06

I don't think that at the time that he was alive, there was anything that was gonna make it better that could have put the pieces back together in his brain. But on a positive note, Sarah, I will tell you from someone who was not pro psilocybin, and has now changed her tune completely, she was like, so again, she's like, I this is not happening. You're not going, I'm canceling at all. It's, oh my gosh, guys, like she is a completely different human. kept her entire personality intact, but just brighter. Yeah. And it's the weirdest, wildest miracle that I've ever seen. And amazing. It's amazing. But what we talk about on the podcast is we talk about the toolbox. So you can't just go to therapy. You can't just take medicine. You can't just do psilocybin you can't just you know if you're gonna go and smoke marijuana and you have a medical there, you can't do that. You can't just work out people are like dogs dancer. No, you have you tried yoga. Oh god, I we both teach yoga. Yeah, we're always like,

Sarah Simone 58:21

have you tried deep breaths?

Amy Baumgardner 58:23

Yeah. There's like, I teach meditation asshole. But anyways, so it's a it's it's figuring out what pieces you need, personally, to put it together. And you know, part of that is an I know it's like a word that everyone's using now is trauma right? So it's part of it is really digging into what is your trauma and how do you heal that and we're using a multiple

Sarah Simone 58:50

multitude of things and finding

Collier Landry 58:55

what you just say right there, it's a toolbox

Amy Baumgardner 58:59

and that's the goal of our podcast is to give tools every single time that we come on there, take it leave it throw it away, we don't care but like this is another option because it what works for one might not work for the other and I personally in my life, I need like 14 things to function as a human. You know, I just started doing that float therapy where you're like in the thing where you probably have that in California

Collier Landry 59:25

sensory deprivation Yeah, in fact, I got a I got a Groupon on it years ago and I never did it and I think I still have it I should go do it.

Amy Baumgardner 59:33

So I mean, that isn't solving my problems but it's adding to the plus sign of maybe Amy will make it so yeah, I just adding things to the things that I do for myself to try to heal. Is that's what we do. We just try to tell people about all of the options there are.

Collier Landry 59:53

I think it's wonderful what you guys are doing. Thank you. I you know, and It was very funny. You're like, I'm being very sensitive to you call your because you said you quit drinking, but I do live in California, we do accept all these. As crazy as California is we have great weather. And, and we have very forward thinking physicians. Yes. And I love that. Yeah, I mean, it's like it's very, like when you say, I tried to psilocybin, I believe you're just, it's 2022 you're just trying this now, I think to myself, because it's just we do take it for granted.

Amy Baumgardner 1:00:32

But you know, Pennsylvania and Ohio is no,

Collier Landry 1:00:35

I take this for granted. portion is now illegal in Ohio. Come on. Oh,

Sarah Simone 1:00:40

yeah. All right. backward steps. Yeah,

Collier Landry 1:00:43

it's just, you know, it's, it's interesting, because, you know, we do we take for granted a lot of things based on our location, that are available to us. I mean, there was just like, there was just like the Bufo Toad frog ceremony, and they were doing psilocybin and there was there's, they call it journeying here, they have parties with a 500 watch, and you go, and you go on a journey, and they have, you know, certifies, and, you know, you pay your money, and there's like, 20 people, and it happens right down the street from here in Santa Monica. And they have people that are, you know, that are specialists. And that will, you know, the observe units overnight thing and drink a tea. It's not like Ayahuasca or anything, but you know, you they, they, they're just there to sort of guide you through it. There's like four people and you know, it's it's a whole thing. It's, it's a, it's a journey. It's a journey, literally, it's

Sarah Simone 1:01:38

down for the journey.

Collier Landry 1:01:40

I've never done it. I'm not saying that I'm against it or anything. I just have never done it. You know, I It's interesting. We talk about medication I had gotten on Lexapro. About a year and a half ago, well, who wants to say two years ago, so February 2020. And I took it for a year, and my prescription had run out, I needed to get it refilled. And I was on a show and I didn't get a refill for like three days is to do on a try not to do this because I didn't know when to quit drinking and all these things. And so I was like, Okay, I'll try this. And it was great. And then I, you know, this is something do not if you're listening to this podcast, do not do this shit. I don't read yourself off. I went to call I went off a cold turkey. And I was great. And there's a point while I'm telling the story. And I have never by the grace of God and how this is, it hasn't happened to me, but I I've never had depression, or, or, or any, you know, I've been sad. Very sad, obviously. And I've faced I faced depressive moments and where I have been depressed, but I would not say that I I have faced depression in those ways. You know, I mean, because I've had many friends that have, you know, can't get out of bed, can't shower can't function, you know, and you just go what is going on and it's so hard to understand, but I was two weeks off of the Lexapro and I was only taking 10 milligrams and I started having these panic attacks, lightweight panic attacks because I would I took the Lexapro not for it was for like anti anxiety because I was having ups and downs and I would attribute most of that to my choice of work you know, Hollywood is a is a is a industry. The entertainment industry is an industry where you experience very dramatic highs and lows, something happens and it doesn't have that you get the job you're on it you're on a show for for you know, weeks and weeks and months and months and then all of a sudden you crash because you're off the show and it's you know, you have sort of postpartum depression or whatever it is right or you know, posts we call post show depression where you're just like, Oh, I was on and it's great. Well, we're people for like the last year and Allison I have nothing to do and I'm like, oh my god, I have no job and all my friends are gone because you you're you're making a show so you're with these people every single day doing something it's a you know, it's a team effort. It's a creative endeavor and you become you know, attached to these people right and then all sudden they're gone and you're on different shows and you're like what happened but I started Express experiencing after two weeks, just this severe depression, anxiety, panic attacks, and depression and like legit depressing I'm like, why am I depressed? And there was no reason to explain it. And it wasn't like my life was peachy keen and everything was going fine and I was having all the daily struggles I have with you know, it's struggling you know, working in a creative industry getting paying the bills, you know, maintaining starting a podcast, all those things, right? That you juggle, but I for about two weeks, I had this and I had to remind myself, rationally, call your, you've taken yourself off of medication medication that was messing with the chemicals in your brain, you're not on that medication. This is a side effect of you cutting out this medication, cold turkey. And I would have to remind myself that many times a day, when I would get into those moments,

what I find so interesting about that is I was able to remind myself of that this is just something that you are going through. Whereas someone who has clinical depression, or someone that has a disorder, manic depressive, bipolar, there's not that filter, there's not that perception of okay, like your husband would, would never had his moments of clarity for lack of a better word, or when he was, you know, quote, unquote, normal or functional. Rather, he he couldn't say, Okay, well, now when I go into that phase, where I'm in this state of psychosis, or not understanding your conspiracy theories, or abounding or whatever, I can take myself out of that. And that's something that people really need to understand. And I and I, you know, I, like I said, I've had friends who were depressed, friends were clinically depressed, experienced bipolar experience, you know, manic depressive disorder. But it wasn't until I cut myself off that medication, where I was literally not understanding why I was feeling so down. And it wasn't like I was feeling down about like, the murder, or my mother or my life or anything was just, I was just sad. And I'm like, why am I sad? And then I had to, but thank God, I can have that cognition, to just say, Okay, this is what it is. I can't imagine not having that.

Amy Baumgardner 1:06:47

What you just describes, so well, for someone who didn't know it is exactly how we feel. Or I'll just speak for myself when I'm when I have depression. And it hits me is that overwhelming sadness for no real reason. And I can't pinpoint it. And I can't tell you why. And I can't find anything good. And I literally just want to die because I feel so because we can't rationalize it. I can't tell you. And when someone comes outside of my life, and says something like, you know, it's not that bad or get up or you have nothing to be sad about. I'm like, but I do, but I don't know what it is. And you just want to like punch that person in the face. It's really, really hard. Really, really hard to explain exactly what you just said to someone who doesn't understand it.

Collier Landry 1:07:41

I was that person, I was really good. You have a me you have a huge shadow, you have a beautiful life, you have this. And then in until I had that, that moment of clarity for myself of going, Whoa, this is what it's like, because I couldn't explain it wasn't like something triggered me and made me sad. I read a sad article, I thought about something that sad. I heard a sad song watch a sad, whatever. There was nothing responsible for it. It was literally a chemical situation where I was depleted of serotonin, right? Because it was serotonin SSRIs or selective serotonin reuptake inhibitor, right. So I, there was a chemical issue in my brain, but it was self induced, right? I took myself off of medication, which again, do not do that. Approach your doctor do not, please. But I had to remind myself of that. But I just thought to myself, in those moments, I was like, oh my god, this is what this is like, for someone who can't do that. Who doesn't have that cognition to go, this is what you're going through man. And I can because I can rationalize myself out of it. And after about 510 minutes, it would go away. I wouldn't think about it. And, you know, I've never gone back on the medication since. And I've been great. And I've also been sober. Right? So I wasn't even, you know, and gay for me. But I but it was really something that just really struck a nerve with me that it was like, wow, like, Okay, you you are, you got a glimpse inside inside the mind of someone else that is going through this, they can't get out of it. It's a gift. It's powerful. It's so powerful.

Sarah Simone 1:09:22

I mean, that's you that it's like it's a gift for you to be able to do that you can now relate to those friends that have those depressive feelings and episodes. And that's a beautiful thing because there's nothing more frustrating and embarrassing, embarrassing and shameful feeling than someone who has depression trying to explain it to somebody else who doesn't. And that filter that you you're talking about that filter that you can turn on to say this is just a chemical thing that's happening in my brain. For someone who's in that deep depths of depression who has that clinical depression, they don't have that fill through their filter is actually completely different. That filter turns on that says that you're right. Nobody cares about you, you're right, the best thing for you to do is to stay in the bed, like you don't nobody wants to see you. You have nothing to offer, you're worthless. Like, that's the filter that turns on for someone in that state. And so it's a beautiful thing that you can say to yourself. This is, you know, what, what, stop this train of thought, this is where to stop this right here. And the other thing I kind of wanted to say about what you said is that you felt great, right after you stopped taking it. And I want like everybody to know, if you stopped taking your medication for a few days, you're going to feel amazing.

Collier Landry 1:10:43

Yeah. Oh, yeah, it was it was very short lived. Hi, you're not? Yeah, it was. I think it maybe lasted I say two weeks. I think it only lasted about a week to 10 days. So it was great. I felt good. And then all of a sudden, for two weeks, it sunk into that into the part where I was like, Oh, my God, like, what is going to happen? I was scared. I was in but I again, I just kept having to remind myself that slowly I came out of it. Right. Yeah. You know, every day it was, it was, you know, I just remind myself, it'd be less than less than I would feel that way. And then finally, it was just gone. But man, it just really made me take a hard look. Yeah, it is. This is what it's like, this is me having that experience.

Amy Baumgardner 1:11:25

Wow. And it's almost like I feel that way with someone. It's interesting having this conversation with you, because I like I always am like, not everyone feels this way. Like, right. i It's hard for me to imagine a life without the depression. And it's also an interesting thing that I've noticed recently, and I've had to write about it is like, when I'm not depressed, be like, This is what you really are, this is what you really feel like, and like, I'll maybe watch this video back right at a time when I'm like, super depressed and like, sad. And don't be like, I don't even know that person. What was that? That's not even real.

Sarah Simone 1:12:02

So it's like a complete, you know, flip like, I was reading through some journal entries that I had written when I was in a really bad spot. And I was like, Oh, that's so mortified. I was like, wow, there was some storms going on in here that like, I just don't, I don't even understand right now. Feeling like healthy looking at that person just from a few months ago. Wow, of that depressive state. Like because I'm, we're both writing our books. We're both writing memoirs. And so you know, I was writing this chapter on depression, and I wrote it while I was feeling this really tough tidal wave of depression, before I had my therapy. And I read through that the other day, because I was, you know, adding to some some of the chapter and I was like, holy shit. I seriously, this is, and I'm embarrassed to say this, but I feel like I you know, authenticity is what we're here for. But I was like, you're messed up, like, that was messed up, like, I can't or

Amy Baumgardner 1:13:03

you look at that, and you're like, Oh, that is not enough. Like when I want to be around. Yeah, that is not

Sarah Simone 1:13:07

somebody like, is that person like, oh, you know, I was like, disgusted with myself. I was disgusted with my own brains thoughts. Like, it was it was embarrassing. I was, I felt shame. I felt like shameful. I was like, I cannot believe that. That is where my mind was just a few months ago. Yeah. It's wild.

Collier Landry 1:13:33

Well, congratulations on this new experimental therapy and getting results out of it. And not just that's incredibly that's it's incredible. It's why we need to look at these things. And, you know, I mean, it's incredible. I'm really, you know, bravo to the Canadians.

Amy Baumgardner 1:13:54

I know, Rob Oh, Canadians. Yes.

Sarah Simone 1:13:57

Therapy. Like, I just like a therapists office, and they're like, Oh, here's our therapist that offers, you know, psilocybin psychedelic therapy. I was like, Good God, like,

Amy Baumgardner 1:14:07

come on America. Get your shit together. Maybe we need to be a Californian. Yeah, I guess, down the street from call yourself. Journey, literally, it's

Collier Landry 1:14:15

like a party. I had a friend who was who was a therapist, and she's a therapist at or they are at a therapist at you know, for for meta. And so that's their clientele. And they went to Utah to get this therapy. Then they did MDMA therapy as well. And they did it specifically to try not because they weren't they were having depression, they were not depressed, they realized that they, you know, the, whatever her issues were, which were their issues, which were, you know, lack of relationship and things of that nature, child those types of things, but she was like, I really want to try this because how can I know if it's safe to recommend to my patients because I believe in this so much Yeah, you know, she was really into it. It was really grateful that she participated in it because it opened up her eyes to like, this is something that we need to very seriously take a look at. Because they can really be beneficial for people in their tree in treatment of this disease. Um, I feel like we can go on and on. I, but I have another interview. But I'd love to bring you guys back. For sure her love that. Amy, Sarah, where can our audience find you guys?

Amy Baumgardner 1:15:34

Sarah is the best. Look at her.

Sarah Simone 1:15:38

So you can go to our website, which is www dot unqualified therapists.com. We are on Instagram at unqualified therapists also on Twitter at with that same handle. And our episodes are everywhere that you can find podcasts wherever your favorite podcast provider is we are unqualified therapists on there as well. It's pretty easy, but we tried to keep it consistent across the board.

Collier Landry 1:16:01

Yeah, I love it. I love it. Well, yeah, that's fantastic. Now, you release episodes every Wednesday.

Sarah Simone 1:16:07

Every Thursday, we release our episodes. So we have new episodes every week, we cover a broad variety of topics. So we try to keep it in the mental health realm, but just really try to give you guys tools on healing, some understanding behind some of the diagnoses we are as our title says, I'm qualified but we bring on the professionals from time to time, as well as other what we deem unqualified therapists like Collier himself. Yeah. So talk about how you get through all the tough shit that you go through in life. And just you know, real people out there living real lives and how you can just survive and thrive through

Amy Baumgardner 1:16:45

balance it with professionals, and then real people telling their stories because we both believe that stories heal. We know you believe that to sir. And Yep, absolutely. And so together, you know, all of us putting that out there, I think that we can get on a healing path healing journey and not feel so damn alone. Yeah, that's me. I

Sarah Simone 1:17:06

really just don't want anybody to feel alone. We are with you.

Collier Landry 1:17:10

I love it. I love it. I love this conversation. I think my audience is really going to love it. I hope so really fast. Just if you could help me with if someone is struggling with these types of things. I know you're unqualified, but you do have resources at your fingertips, or anywhere you anywhere you would recommend our audience to go.

Sarah Simone 1:17:31

Yeah, if you're looking for therapy, which is going to be our number one suggestion for everybody, always Psychology Today is going to be your best place to go. Because you can put in your zip code. And you can find therapists near you that are accepting new patients. If they are not, which is tough times, guys, everybody's going through some rough stuff right now. So therapists are pretty booked up get on a waiting list though, because at some point, they are going to have a cancellation and be able to get you in. In the meantime, you can check out resources like cerebral BetterHelp, those types of online resources as well. And if you just need to talk to somebody, we're always here you can DM us, we answer all of our messages from people who reach out to us. We're not qualified, but we're a listening ear. And we're here to reach out, we

Amy Baumgardner 1:18:16

can also then point you in a specific direction as to possibly where you go, we have a couple of episodes about how to talk with friends how to find friends that you can talk to about this sort of stuff without you know, unloading on them. And also with being honest with someone because it's so important to have someone that you can be your full authentic

Sarah Simone 1:18:38

self with. Yeah, broaching this type of topic is pretty hard. So we try to give some guidance on that. And then also, you know, the National Suicide Prevention Hotline is out there as well. There is a new number 844 which is like your 911. So you can just dial 844 and it'll take you to a the national suicide prevention hotline.

Collier Landry 1:19:00

Ladies, a pleasure. I want to have you guys back. Thank you so much for joining the program.

Amy Baumgardner 1:19:07

Thank you so much. It was a really good time. It's

Sarah Simone 1:19:10

it's really nice. Talking with you as usual.

Collier Landry 1:19:13

Thank you so much, Amy. And Sarah from unqualified therapists, Inc, is their podcast, and they were our guests today on moving past murder. Thank you so much, ladies.

Amy Baumgardner 1:19:23

Welcome. Thank you.

Collier Landry 1:19:26

Clinical Depression is a real thing. And I you know, as I said to the girls, I as someone who's been through really traumatic events and really depressing things. I mean, look, my family abandoned me when the murder happened and I was thrown into the foster care system, right. There was a lot of, you know, sadness and sorrow going through my heart because not only did I lose my mother, and my father, I lost my entire family and I felt completely abandoned because I was and but I owe I always knew, in my heart of hearts that I was going to make it through, I had this hope. People who are suffering from these from these mental illnesses or this, this depression, they don't see life that way. And it was took me a really long time to understand it. But again, as I was sharing with the girls, when I came off medication, I had this depressive moments. And I had to remind myself like, Oh, you're coming off a medication. That's, you know, that's why you feel this way. I at least had something to reference where some people, you know, people that go through this in a very serious way, have a really hard time pulling themselves out of it. It's great to hear that, you know, they have pursued alternative medicines to help them with this. And that's a great thing. Because those you know, I'm not here to advocate for anything, but I do feel like as we advanced scientifically in this world, and we discover new holistic medicines that can maybe help with this treatment is a little more unconventional, of course, but it seems to yield some really good results. I've had many friends yield results from this as well. So but that's my enough of the diatribe on that. Again, my heart goes out to these women and and all that they're sharing with us because they're really doing an amazing podcast. They're really doing some amazing stuff and bringing some real awareness to this. So on that note, I'm Collier Landry and this is Moving Past Murder. Thanks.

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