- Collier Landry
A Not So Private Idaho - Dr. Danielle Slakoff on Media Sensationalization in Idaho Four Case
What is it about true crime that leaves audiences with a nearly insatiable appetite for the bleeding headlines? With the recent cases involving the "Idaho Four" and the apprehension of suspect Bryan Kohberger, and now the Ana Walshe disappearance, a media-feeding frenzy has reached an almost feverish pitch.
In this episode, Dr. Danielle Slakoff, an Assistant Professor of Criminal Justice at California State University, Sacramento, joins this important discussion. As a researcher, she examines how the media portrays crime and victimization, having published recent work on how true crime podcasts portray intimate partner violence.
Additional episode highlights include:
• Moving Past Murder has won the Listener's Choice award at the 2022 Signal Awards
• The eerie similarities of a mother of 3, Ana Walshe, who went missing from her Cohasset, Massachusetts' home on New Year's Day 2023. The situation directly parallels the disappearance of Collier's mother, Noreen Boyle, some 33 years ago.
About the University of Idaho 4 Case: Bryan Kohberger is currently The Suspect in the Idaho 4 Murder Case. The Idaho 4 Murder case is a quadruple murder that took place in the state of Idaho in November 2022. Four college students from the University of Idaho were found dead in their off-campus house. and the authorities launched a massive investigation to find the culprit. The case gained nationwide attention, and eventually, the police arrested Bryan Kohberger as the prime suspect.
More on Dr. Danielle Slakoff can be found on her website: https://daniellecslakoff.weebly.com/
Dr. Slakoff's Other Podcast Appearances include Missing, Murdered and The Media, Beyond Fear Podcast - Who is the Ideal Victim?, 1010 Wins In Depth: Gabby Petito - A true crime social craze.
In addition to these resources, it's also important to consider seeking support from a licensed mental health professional or support group. Talking with a trusted friend or family member can also be beneficial in overcoming trauma and its aftermath.
Psychology Today: https://www.psychologytoday.com/
American Psychological Association: https://www.apa.org/
National Institute of Mental Health: https://www.nimh.nih.gov/index.shtml
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Dr. Danielle Slakoff: So I recently published a piece, uh, with two of my brilliant co-authors, and we really looked at how grief was portrayed in true crime. And what we found was that very clearly victims' families [01:03:00] were expressing grief in true crime. And I think that begs really important questions about whether we are comfortable as a society.
Are we comfortable with the fact that somebody is commodifying these people's grief? I think that's a question that we don't have an answer to right now, but it's pretty clear to me that grief is being commodified.
Collier Landry: Wow. That's a very poignant statement for.
Testimony continued. Today in the most notorious criminal trial in Richland County history. Dr. John Boyle
Dr. Danielle Slakoff: is accused of killing his wife, Noreen, and burying her body in the basement of his new
Collier Landry: home in Erie, Pennsylvania. The 12 year old son finally took the stand. As I heard a screen, I heard a thud was about this loud.
We and the jury find the defendant guilty. When I was 12 years old, my testimony sent my father to prison for murdering my mother. This podcast serves as a type of therapy and reconciliation for myself, [01:04:00] and it is my hope that it helps anyone who is experienced deception, betrayal, and dark trauma. I'm Collier Landry, and this is Moving Past Murder.
Hey movers. Welcome back to another episode of Moving Past Murder. I'm your host, Collier Landry. Ann, what's going. What's going on, people? Happy Friday. Happy Friday the 13th. I feel there's a movie there. I have some excellent news for you guys. You are officially listening to an award-winning podcast. I won the Signal Award Listener's Choice award for best exclusive content and experiences.
As you guys know, I've worked my ass off to create amazing content for you guys and to be honored with such an amazing group of esteemed colleagues of mine. Very honored and humbled, and thank you all so much. I know a lot of you guys reached out, you voted, and I really, really, really appreciate you guys because.
The listener's choice is, I think, the best award to win [01:05:00] because that's you guys voting on that. It's not a bunch of suits. It's not a bunch of people who have other podcasts. It is listeners who consume this content and who enjoy it. And you guys are telling me that you're enjoying what I'm doing, which makes me so happy.
So thank you so much. I wanna dive into this week's episode here in a second. I have an amazing guest. Her name is Dr. Daniella Koff. She is the assistant professor of criminal justice at California State University Sacramento. Now, I met Dr. Daniel SLA Koff on Twitter about a week and a half ago, and we communicated, we were on a text thread with another fellow survivor named, uh, Carrie Rosson, and I commented, she commented back and I was excited and I was like, Hey, would you come on the program?
Because she specializes also in true crime and media. She has a journalism background. I was very intrigued to. Get her opinion on current events such as the unfortunate murder of the four students in Idaho, in Moscow, [01:06:00] Idaho, and all of the conjecture that surrounds these cases. And we delve into the mental health processes.
I, I'm very concerned about people's mental health when consuming true crime. I was just on the Twitter spaces this week talking about that. And I know when things not necessarily trigger me, but they come up for me inexperiences in true crime. And one of those would be the recent disappearance of Anna Walsh in Cohasset, Massachusetts.
Now her br, her husband Brian Walsh, has been arrested for something unrelated, but he was being pre barricaded with police about his whereabouts. He was already under a house arrest sort of situation, and he is now in custody when. I had a bunch of friends reach out to me about this because, and some of them were people that testified at my father's trial and that knew my mother and one of them in particular said, this is so eerily similar to your mother's case and I don't really comment on [01:07:00] cases or give my opinion, you can tune into other true crime podcasts for that.
This is all about my own experiences experiencing and looking at these situations and, and what I feel is concerning and then relating it back to my own situation as someone who witnessed a murder and who's someone who put his father in prison for murdering his mother and the narcissism and the gaslighting that I've dealt with ever since from him.
So I feel that I offer a really unique perspective. It is just eerily similar that she disappeared on New Year's Day. My mother disappeared on New Year's Eve at three in the morning. This was four in the morning. The husband was saying that she was going to, or she was supposed to go to Washington DC which is where my father suggested my mother went.
They have three children, young children. And the husband is the same age as my father was when he committed my mother's murder. Unfortunately, there have been things in development over the week. There was a search warrant that was executed when the, when the children were removed from the house and taken to [01:08:00] custody of the state, much like I was, and there was a search warrant that turned up, I guess, some blood on the basement floor wall, much like a concrete splatter that they found in the home where they found my mother's body.
The similarities are really hard to ignore. I still pray that there's a happy ending to this. I know that it's an ongoing investigation and I'm not gonna comment on it because I know what it feels like, and that's what I get into with Dr. Sla Koff. Is this, this case in Moscow, Idaho. This, the families of the victims are obviously of my first concern, but also we have to keep in mind that the, the family of the suspect is also a victim in this.
They're, they have not committed a crime and they're now dealing with. Sort of reconciling the fact that potentially their son has done something very horrific. We have to have compassion when we talk about these things and, and mental health. And again, I'm always concerned about how we process all these things and we get so into the stories that we need to take time to time away from those.
I digress on that point. [01:09:00] So as I said, my guest today is Dr. Danielle SLA Koff, and I am pleased to welcome her to the program.
Dr. Danielle Slakoff: I'm Dr. Danielle SLA Koff for this podcast, Collier. Totally cool to call me Danielle. I'm an assistant professor of criminal justice at Sacramento State. I teach about media crime I justice and violence against women and women's issues in the justice system.
I actually got my bachelor's degree in journalism, so I have always had this very intense interest in the media and the interconnection between the media and the justice system.
Collier Landry: And we met via Twitter. Yes. Because you were communicating with, I guess you were on a thread with Carrie Rosson. Who is Dennis Raider's daughter.
Yes. And B T K Killer. And then this sort of whole thing. And I just kind of interjected and uh, we connected and I'm so glad that you agreed to be on the program because I'm so interested in your thoughts.
Dr. Danielle Slakoff: Yeah, and I will tell you, Twitter has opened up my world in so many ways to meeting people from all walks of life.
And so I'm [01:10:00] very glad to have met
Collier Landry: you there. One of the things we were just discussing bef before the interview was this sort of weird intersection of sports, politics, and true crime in this last week in the United States.
Dr. Danielle Slakoff: Yes. So being that I had that degree of journalism for my bachelor's, I remember thinking to myself, okay, there seems to be these three ways that people are going, right.
They're political reporters, sports reporters and crime reporters. And then of course, a bunch of other topics as well. But when I went into my bachelor's degree program, I was very interested at the time, in actually covering sports. But when I got there very quickly, I realized that I was really interested in criminal justice, and a professor actually said to me, you know, I think you might be in the wrong major.
I think that you have this other interest that seems to be basically the forefront of a lot of the work I was doing. And so whenever we had a choice of what we wrote in my [01:11:00] classes, I always chose a crime piece. And so I think that this professor really had a huge impact on my life because they saw, but before I even saw it, to be honest with you, they saw that this was a main interest that I had.
Collier Landry: That's very cool. So what is, it's interesting because I had somebody prompt me the other day asking me my thoughts on the Idaho murders and this Idaho case, which I know admittedly nothing about. And then it just starts this whole stream of people chiming in on TikTok. giving this and that and oh this.
And then people correcting them saying, this isn't really evidence, this is evidence. This is this. And I just thought, wow. And I started looking into it. And that that then took me to YouTube, which I'm watching these videos and I'm seeing these experts just, and I'm aware that these people exist, but these experts just weighing in with, oh, this is what happened here.
This, and I think [01:12:00] the tone that wa that really struck me was their vehement argument that he's a killer. That this guy, and look, I don't know, I don't know who this Brian Colberg is, or Coberg. I wa, all I know is that I wasn't there when all this went down and that I can't speak on that. Right. But I am as a citizen, very.
Of like how quickly these people are tried in the court of public opinion on news, which is impacting people's decision making perception of cases, and also potential jurors and things like that, and how it affects the criminal justice system at large.
Dr. Danielle Slakoff: Oh, definitely. And a person on TikTok, you know, publicly named a professor at the university as potentially being involved, and that professor is now suing this TikTok creator for naming Wow them.
And so we're seeing a lot of these issues kind of come to a head [01:13:00] right now. I will tell you from my perspective, as someone who does research on media and crime, Just based on the characteristics of the crime, I had a feeling that this case was going to get a massive amount of attention. And it's not just in the US or in Idaho.
It's international at this point, that people are tuning in from all over the world. And there's actually quite a few similarities to the Gabby Petito case in the sense that there was not an immediate ending to the story, right? So there was that, what happened, who did it where you know what's going on next.
And then there was also the social media aspect. So very quickly in the Gabby Petito case, people on TikTok, social media, Reddit were posting, theorizing all of these things very quickly. And in fact, there was a woman on TikTok that posted 70, 70 videos about Gabby in just six days. So realizing like, oh, I can really boost my followers if I just jump onto this [01:14:00] train.
And so I saw that very quickly happening again in this case. So I, I anticipated that we were gonna have what we have now, which I would argue is somewhat of a media circus. I've been very lucky and it's an honor to be able to talk to a lot of local journalists about my thoughts on the case, because I know that they're, you know, they have a job to do.
But right now the national media is there and it much harder to do some of the work that they want to do because there's so many people there that don't understand the context of the community, you know, that kind of thing. So yeah, I definitely am kind of watching with baited breath at this point. We.
Now have a suspect. I, in my interviews, I try not to use this person's name. It's the suspect at this point. He's innocent until proven guilty to your point. Right? Absolutely. And it's important that people center that for the sake of the criminal justice system. Everybody has the presumption of [01:15:00] innocence.
Collier Landry: Yeah, absolutely. And this, this suspect, like this woman that I'm watching on Fox yesterday, and again, this is not a fox or see it because it was also on CNN as well, so it's all over the media. She says something to the effect of, she starts commenting on the way that his father was dressed at the arraignment hearing and how he wasn't dressed appropriately for court.
And then she starts talking about his background and saying how the father, this is what really what caught me. The father claimed bankruptcy in 2012 or 20 10, 20 10, and that therefore he wasn't the best role model for his son. Mm-hmm. , and I'm just like, what?
Dr. Danielle Slakoff: We have no idea at this point. We have no idea.
And you mentioned Carrie, what does that matter? Right? What does that matter? Ed, you mentioned Carrie Rosson. Nothing to do with it. Yeah. You mentioned Carrie Rosson, the daughter of Dennis Rader. Yes. The BTK killer. [01:16:00] And she's been very vocal on this last week, and I am, you know, I follow her and I follow her work diligently, and she's been firm that at this point we have no reason to believe his family had any idea.
And it's very likely that they are also victims in what's happening right now. Right. Again, he is innocent until proven guilty, but their lives have also been upended. Mm-hmm. , you know, it's been reported now and there's been video that his father and him just took a road trip together. And, you know, I, I was thinking about that, how s how scary and horrifying this must be for his father who just had this long road trip with his son and with the presumption of innocence, of course, but.
regardless. Now his son is seeking or is potentially going to be prosecuted for a very, very violent crime and may never be able to see his son again depending on the outcome of the case outside of a jail cell or prison cell. And [01:17:00] so, you know, I, I think that that's an important point as well, is there's so much focus right now on, on him, but there are four victims families.
There are the surviving roommates, there's the community, the students in the classes with these victims. I mean, it's really this wide ripple effect that crime has. And yet so much of media attention is only on the perpetrator or suspect in this case. Yeah.
Collier Landry: For, for suspect. Exactly. Or the search for the perpetrator or whatever we wanna call it.
Yeah. And the things that, like I often will discuss with people with other true crime victims. of the, we look at one of the people who I've come in contact with recently, uh, is Rita Isabel and Rita Isabel's. Mm-hmm. S brother was murdered by Jeffrey Dahmer. Yes. And she had a lot to say about this new Dahmer series that was on Netflix and I discussing with people like herself where she was so passionate and delivered, which [01:18:00] was recreated apparently in this series.
But there is almost a glorification that happens of perpetrators of this crime. And I'm not saying this happening in this particular, with the suspect, right. In this particular situation. Not that I could see that it wouldn't happen later on down the road, should he be convicted. But I think that there is, we look at that, but there's never this sensationalization or massive outpouring of compassion towards the.
Who, exactly like you said, we have four families that are grieving the loss of their children. Then we have the family of the suspect that's also grieving the loss of a child, much like everyone and they're no different. And then for them to be publicly excoriated because of this and shamed. And then I'm, I would assume, because I know how these things work, I'm sure that people have followed them and done videos and I'm sure there's just what they're having to deal with is [01:19:00] heartbreaking because they're innocent too.
Right? And And just this woman going on Fox and say, this criminal behavior expert saying this, I thought to myself like, how can you do that? How can you do that and call yourself a professional? How can they give you air time on this? It's one thing if some silly YouTuber or people are talking about them amongst themselves, it's whole, it's totally different when it's someone who's on a news network that we're supposed to say is the media and is professional has ethics.
And codes by which they operate, which I think we're all discovering that that isn't really the case anymore. Journalism is a very lost art, in my opinion, but I would say that this, it, it just, it just, I just look at it from that victim centric perspective.
Dr. Danielle Slakoff: Absolutely. And I think the victims often get lost in the story, especially once a suspect is named.
And so I, again, I'm just kind of embracing myself for this next part because, and it's already happening, right? Let's go back through his junior high and elementary and high school friends, and let's go [01:20:00] back to all of these things that have happened. And the focus is on his backstory, his family, and all of these things.
And who gets lost in it are the victims and the victim's families and the people that really need support. The surviving roommates. I can't. So we are recording a day after the PC affidavit's been released, and it was stated in that, in that document that one of the surviving roommates spotted the, or saw the suspect.
And that was new information for the country. And I'll tell you, as somebody who is, you know, on these true crime forums, everybody is asking about this roommate, how could she, why didn't she call 9 1 1 really picking apart her reaction? And it's really unfortunate, you know, that she is a victim in this as well.
And people freeze in all sorts of situations. Right. And we, we don't know until the trial, which again, we don't even know that there's going to be a trial. , he may plead out depending, we don't know anything at this point, [01:21:00] right? People are speculating on all sorts of things. But I've really been keeping her in my thoughts this last 24 hours just because I've seen it.
She's being, to be honest, torn apart on a lot of these forums. And I, I feel really awful for
Collier Landry: her. And that's the thing, that's the thing I think that makes me the angriest is hearing that. And I was aware, I was made aware of this by somebody late last night. They were like, oh yeah. By the way, there's a, there's somebody that was a witness that was in the house that supposedly saw him and closed her door and they, and they continued to say probably because they were all partying and she was probably drunk and went back to sleep like every normal college kid.
Right. And we have no
Dr. Danielle Slakoff: idea .
Collier Landry: So, and we have no idea. So the fact that she now all of a sudden becomes a v a villain in this. And it's interesting because there was another, in a stark contrast or dichotomy to what is going on, there was another situation which the media just jumped on the circus bandwagon, which was we all witnessed on, or [01:22:00] people with sports fans like myself witnessed on Monday night football, the collapse and near death of DeMar Hamlin.
Yes. And on the flip side, you have sports media, which obviously has a very vested interest in the welfare of the National Football League and all of that. But you had people going on to Twitter. I watched certain talk shows, sports talk show host. And one of them was making a comment that people interpreted to be more concerned about the game and less concerned about the life of the person on the field.
What they didn't do is they didn't, is these people were just quick to, again, excoriate him because he has a bad reputation anyways, because people just don't like him. And nobody looks at the timing of this because he literally just saw a guy that was injured on the field and was like, oh, what are they gonna do about this game?
But I, it seems kind of irrelevant because this guy needs help. Well, this is what he was essentially saying and the timing of all of it. But then that was vilified because it's like we have to pick someone out to vilify, so now we're gonna vilify this guy has nothing to [01:23:00] do with this, and now we're gonna vilify this roommate or this not Reba roommate.
This person was in the, was this sorority or party house or something they all lived in. And I mean, I went to college. We had situations like that. Now we're quick to then blame someone else. And why do you think that is? It's like the blame, the victim mentality. Why? Why do we go that? ,
Dr. Danielle Slakoff: oh man. In academia, there's a lot of thoughts about this.
So there's an idea that basically by blaming victims, we make, we put our, we put distance between ourselves and victims, right? So we tell ourselves, I would never react that way. I could protect myself. I would take myself out of that situation. I would've left that relationship. All of the common victim blaming Yeah.
That we see, right? And by doing that, you basically feel like you're in control of your own life. And it's, it's this very weird psychological thing that happens with victim blaming. And I, what I've noticed is that it's become much more subtle victim blaming, right? So it'll be things [01:24:00] like, oh, she saw warning signs, but she didn't do anything right.
Instead of just saying, well, why didn't she leave? You know, it's become more subtle over time, but that doesn't mean that the implication's not the same. And what's missing from so many of these is. Context, right? Context of what happened. Yes. We don't know that people didn't attempt to leave. You know, none of that stuff is just, as somebody who also studies violence against women and domestic violence specifically, it just drives me nuts, when I see and hear things like that.
So, yeah, victim blaming, it's, I also think that there's just this need and want to know what happened, you know, this curiosity to understand, and there is some research that suggests, especially with true crime, that people engage with it because they want to learn warning signs and safety tips. So yeah, there's also that component of it is, oh, how do I protect myself in reality?
Vi stranger victimization is very rare. We don't know at this point if there's a connection in the [01:25:00] Idaho four case, but in reality, the unfortunate reality is that women are more likely to be harmed by people known to them. Partners, intimate partners, friends, family members, coaches, all sorts of things, right?
So, . It's, it's definitely a very valid question and I, I'm not surprised. That's the thing that's hard from my perspective, is I'm not surprised by the turn that this has taken at this point.
Collier Landry: Yeah. It's, it's so unfortunate. I think back to, there were some people that, that tried to say, well, your mother, she didn't leave the relationship cuz he, because of the money, cuz he was a doctor and therefore she didn't relieve that.
And I'm like, that's ridiculous. She, first of all, put my father through medical school and yes, my father then took all the money when they were getting a divorce because he was a psychopath and an narcissist and was planning on killing her, but she was also looking outta the welfare of her child Right.
And didn't want, and was willing to live [01:26:00] and tolerate with certain things until across a certain line mm-hmm. , where she then drew the line. So yeah, I, that always affects me and is always, it's almost always targeted towards women. . It's really very rare where you see them say that about a man.
Dr. Danielle Slakoff: Yeah. And then there's the flip side too, where perpetrators are often justified or excused for various reasons, right.
Mental health, while there are a lot of people that struggle with mental illness, that would never harm somebody. Right. In fact, people with mental illness, the data suggests are more likely to be victims than they are to be perpetrators. Right? So there's just so many things that happen and yeah, I definitely, this is just my personal opinion, I definitely think there's some misogyny that is built into this.
There is some, you know, absolutely there's some concerns about what this looks like, and I think that's why it's slow coming. But I do think that there are people in the true crime space that are trying to kind of write some of these [01:27:00] wrongs. A good example, I'll give you an example, is the new Netflix documentary.
I am Vanessa Guillen, and it's about a fort hood soldier that was unfortunately killed by another soldier. Yes. And. They do a very, very good job of talking about the societal and systemic issues at play, right? Yeah. The fact that sexual harassment is rampant in certain places in the military, those types of things, a lot of true crime is missing that context.
And so I'm hopeful. I'm hopeful that we're going to see more and more true crime that speaks to some of these larger issues.
Collier Landry: Yeah. While these people know they clout chasing, try pursuing headlines. It's interesting because I have a fr, I had people that I know that and they work with a mutual friend and I've been on their podcast and then I see they're, they were talking about certain things and then they turned it all to true crime and then they chased one case for a really long time and now they've turned to this [01:28:00] Idaho, I just saw, they published something today and they have 50,000 views they couldn't get three months ago.
But then in the sense of nobody was watching their content, but now all of sudden they jumped on this bandwagon and it's very interesting. You go. Okay. Well, yeah, they all right. But it's also unfortunate because a lot of times there's a lot of good that can come from true crime. Mm-hmm. bringing awareness of a friend, Sarah attorney who does Voices for Justice podcast, and she started her podcast because of wanting to raise a awareness for her sister who went missing.
Yes. And then ultimately, and then she now covers cases and helps families. Right. Right. To expose their thing. So that's a use of using your powers for good. Right. There is, right. There are ways that you can raise attention. You can raise, I have friends that do a stalking podcast and they don't, they hardly even talk during the interviews.
They just let the victims talk and tell their story because I find it to be very informative because they talk about ways that these, this stalking [01:29:00] and this harassment had started. The little signs that they saw, and they're from all walks of life. Right. Whether they were a stripper or a lawyer. You know what I mean?
Or in the military. And they share their stories. And I find that is for raising awareness or seeing warning signs. I mean, myself, I read my father's letters from prison and share those types of things I feel is so beneficial because I even have people that reach out to me, they're like, this is my father, this is my spouse, this was my partner, this was my best friend, this was my mother, father, whatever.
And I, by you reading this, I can now see that I'm okay. I'm normal. I wasn't. Cuz you're being, when you're being gaslit, you think that every, you think you're crazy, right? You're going crazy. And then to have a common ground. And I feel that there's so much in that space that could really do good for that.
But I just, this case is interesting. You said, there was a guy that I interviewed who was, you were talking about mental health and he was [01:30:00] mugged and then kidnapped in New Orleans around 2002, 2003, and. He was taken to the ninth ward and he was up on a hill by a canal and they were gonna shoot him in the back and he literally would not roll over and said, you're gonna shoot me in the face?
Mm-hmm. . And I was like, that's really brave of you to do that. You know what, if you're gonna do it, you're gonna do it this way. And he goes, no, he's I'll take that. But really the reason was because I was depressed, because I lost my mother eight months before and I was like, fuck it. I don't care. . Mm-hmm. , if I'm gonna go out, at least I'll see it happen to me.
Like he wanted it almost. And it was just one of those things says Wow. And you talk about people and it feel like this also plays, that puts a bad stigma on mental health because Oh, well they're oftentimes I'll hear on podcasts whether they'll refer to people as crazy. Right. They're crazy. Which I think is a really bad thing to say about anyone.[01:31:00]
Yeah. Unless you have a personal connection. To what's going on. To refer to them as crazy when you're not a professional is dangerous. It's D. It's D. All the rhetoric is so dangerous. Yes. And I feel, just like you were saying to the TikTok person now getting sued because they've implicated people, at least hopefully people will get wise that you just can't do that shit.
Dr. Danielle Slakoff: Yeah, I think so.
Collier Landry: What do you think? Do you see that changing?
Dr. Danielle Slakoff: I think that there is a small, and you've actually mentioned some people that I really admire in this space, like Sarah Turner. I think there is this small but growing group of people that are starting to ring the alarm about these issues.
And I'm, I am hopeful. It depends on the day. Sometimes I'm less hopeful. Yeah. But today is a day where I'm feeling hopeful that true crime is gonna change and, and the reality is true. Crime has changed with societal changes. Yeah. So I'm hoping more and more that we will have people kind of ringing the alarm about these issues.
I think that from a criminal [01:32:00] justice, you know, I have my PhD in criminology and criminal justice, and I think it's really important that people understand that by throwing all these theories out and implicating people that at this point the police are saying had nothing to do with it. Right. You're really muddying the waters.
You're potentially victimizing, re-victimizing people. And it's, it's a lot. And you know, this is coming from someone, I will just be very honest, I was a very avid, true crime consumer. I'm somebody who does, I'm a professor of criminal justice, right? So I'm, I'm always kind of trying to keep my pulse on the news.
It was just to the last several years that I started kind of coming to terms with the fact that somebody is benefiting from all of this attention and it's not the victims and it's not their families. No. And that's what I think. There was just this subtle realization on my end. Of, a lot of times it's the media, it's the podcasters, it's the content creators that are benefiting off of this really horrific [01:33:00] crime.
And I think that's where my discomfort started to come in. And I think other people are kind of opening up to this as well, or at least being more open to this fact.
Collier Landry: Yeah. As a professor of CRI Criminal justice, I feel, so something I had read is that there was now 20,000 tips that have come in the last several days to this tip, like 20,000.
Mm-hmm. , because people weighing in. So do you think that even the, all this content online that people are creating is just, is creating even more armchair detectives, they're like, oh, I know a tip, or, and then you have people that are doing it for attention as well to be like, I sent a tip in because I know this.
Do you think that it, that also breeds that, and that's a very dangerous part of all of this. So
Dr. Danielle Slakoff: it's so com It's so case by case in my opinion, because I know with very similar thing happened with the Gabby Petito case, but it was actually a [01:34:00] YouTuber, a couple that was documenting their trip that was like, Hey, we were, you know, I think we may have crossed paths at the same time in the Tetons.
I should check my footage. And ultimately their tip was the tip that at least at this point, the reporting led to her body being discovered because in the footage they saw the van parked off to the side. And so that was a critical tip. Right? And so it's, it's hard to say. I think it can be helpful to have that media attention, but then with 20,000 tips coming in, somebody has to wade through all of those.
Yes. At this point, we don't know how many of those tips are good tips, right? Yeah. And so it's interesting because I saw in a Facebook group that a woman actually posted a Pennsylvania, or excuse me, in Pennsylvania, a car with Washington plate. And said, oh, could this be the Elantra the police are looking for?
And somebody commented, tip it in. Why are you [01:35:00] posting on Facebook? Right? So I thought that was very fascinating. You know, just, and who knows, right? It, it could be, it could be that that was the right car. But I think it does make it hard for law enforcement to wade through all of those. So it's kind of a double edged sword.
And I think we won't know at least right away whether those tips were helpful or not, at least in
Collier Landry: this case. And I think something that when I was talking to the person that was shot that I was talking about earlier, he was saying when he was following up with his case, this was in Louisiana, and he called to get information and they said, well, if you didn't get it, you gotta get somebody on the phone.
We don't have a voicemail here, or something like that. And this is 15, 20 years ago. Right? But. . I think what's, what people don't understand too is that these police departments where these things have happened, they're not New York City. They're not Los Angeles. It's not like the Atlanta, it's not like the FBI is there.
It's Washington DC and they got the whole bureau on the case. . [01:36:00] Yeah. It's a small town that is never just much like my town where I grew up in, where something like this becomes, so, I mean, it was a situation where, look, I heard my father murder my mother. No one believed me except for one detective. I start collecting evidence 25 days later after I find a picture of the house.
They find her body buried under that house in another state. But there is, and so that, that those wheels of justice turned very swiftly. Right. Whereas I can't imagine what would happen now if that situ, if we had TikTok and all of those things occurring there and how muddy the waters would've been. How much speculation and conjecture would've been going on around my mother as well and her involvement with other situations.
And my father for years would maintain that my mother was selling babies and part of a gold smuggling ring, and that's what was, that's why she was killed. You know what I mean? Right. [01:37:00] So I could see those things really taking hold into in 2023 on that case in particular, or if my fam, if this, if we've fast forwarded 30 years.
And I think that is what is so staggering for me as from that standpoint of looking at it, seeing the forest for the trees and going, this is bad. This is bad for the victims, the families. This is bad for the justice system as a whole. And this is bad for society too, like the mental health. aspect of this, constantly talking about it, constantly speculating.
I, I was turned to, I was really affected by what I saw on Monday night Football, to be honest. And
Dr. Danielle Slakoff: I was too. I am, I mentioned earlier, I, at one point thought I was gonna be a sports journalist and I play fantasy football the whole nine yards. So I was very impacted as what, by what I saw. And I think that it's a very normal reaction when you're faced with life and death to be really taken aback, [01:38:00] especially in a stage like the N NFL that we're used to seeing injuries but not injuries that are that catastrophic.
Collier Landry: Yeah. And I, I had to rewind it because I was on a Zoom at the same time. They didn't know that, but I thought it was the play before when the Bengals player had jumped over and he landed on his helmet. I thought, oh my God, he broke his neck. And then I realized he was up. And then I saw, and then I saw DeMar Hamlin fall over and I just,
I was watching the players' faces and I started crying because we're getting teary-eyed because I realized what they were looking at and what they were in that moment. And it's, and look, it is, it's still a life. It is professional football. It makes me think of what do you do when you're in combat with our combat veterans?
And it's very easy for people to are like, oh, they're trained for that. No, they're not . Let's just keep it real. They're not, and you see those things happen. But to see it on [01:39:00] such a stage, to see the trauma that they were going through and what they're gonna have to deal with, because you now have this, this cognitive dissonance between, okay, I'm making millions of dollars to play a game, but I could also lose my life, right?
Like, not that I could get injured, I could rupture my Achilles, I could, I could get, so I could be sidelined for the rest of my career. I could do this, I could die. So what am I doing all this for in the first place? That was just so poignant. Absolutely. And I love you talk about this intersection of politics, sports, and true crime media.
It has just been a week For sure. It has.
Dr. Danielle Slakoff: It has. And I think too, uh, I, I have somebody who comes to this. Originally, my first big research project in the field was talking about the missing white woman syndrome specifically and how the media seems to focus on white missing women and girls and white women and girls that have been killed.
And so when Gabby Petito went [01:40:00] missing, I posted a thread about my research in the area, but also intimate partner violence, some of the warning signs. . What's interesting is that the, A journalist actually saw my thread and that's why they reached out to me. So I myself have posted on social media my thoughts on an ongoing case, and then have been able to these interviews happening.
So social media, I believe has changed a lot. I think it's changed society overall, but sure, with how people interact with crime, it has changed a lot. And I think that what we miss a lot of times in this conversation is that people are looking for ways to connect and for better or worse, people connect over true crime.
And there's some really amazing writing out there by Tanya Hoek, Lily Piquette and others, where they speak to the fact that true crime has almost become a gathering space for people. But what are the long-term implications of [01:41:00] that? Right? And I think that's where we're at right now, is trying to understand what are the long-term implications of.
People, you know, coming together and theorizing. That's one thing. But I think some people honestly feel it's a space to connect with others. And so what is the long term on that? I don't know the answer to that. The, I will tell you from an academic perspective, there's actually not a lot of research on how victims and their families are impacted.
We have some studies that show that just in general, media attention can be harmful. For example, if very explicit details about the crimer are posted or crime scene photos, that that can cause harm, right. To the families. Yes. But yes, there's really not been a ton of research on how is the media impacting victims and their families, and I'm really hoping.
big picture for myself. I'm really hoping to do more of that [01:42:00] work because I think it's a missing piece right now from the academic side.
Collier Landry: It's interesting you say that, and I do want to, I do want to say something because I did see on YouTube as I was posting my episode for today, there was something that somebody did, the same people I was talking about inside the murder house in Idaho media publishes the photos and I just thought, oh my God, you're kidding me.
Kidding me. Like why is this again, for the victims, their families like this is so fresh. Why eminent people are getting are sensationalizing. I
Dr. Danielle Slakoff: teach media crime injustice, and I teach using Truman Capotes in Cold Blood, which is many people believe the beginning of the true crime genre as it is today.
Collier Landry: A hundred percent.
I can remember when the, the forensic Files episode had come out and I hadn't seen it and I wasn't even really. Intuit. I mean, I saw it on a date one time, but I remember [01:43:00] years before that when it had come out, I was telling my story to a girlfriend that, and her best friend and he jumps over to the computer, he starts Googling it, right?
And this is 2002, but it pulled up the crime scene photos or the photo, my mother's body being pulled from the shallow grave in my father's house. And I had never seen that before. And they, and he wasn't under, it didn't, he didn't have to connect that this is his mother that I'm looking at, cuz he was just looking.
And then it hit him and my girlfriend was yell, Tim, stop that. But then wait. And I saw, I was like, oh my God, what? He was being very innocent about it. But then he realized and he closed the browser. He was like, oh my God, I'm so sorry. He just wasn't thinking. And I didn't take offense to it, but I remember seeing, it was the first time I'd ever, that's how I saw it.
You know what I mean? But it's, it's, God, I lost my train of thought. What I was gonna say right before that. Oh damn it. My friend Joe Beringer actually directed the documentary docu-series about the Capote.
Dr. Danielle Slakoff: Cappo. Yes, I've seen it. Yeah. Yeah. [01:44:00] And, and there's, you know, there's something to be said because I actually just watched that documentary very recently for the first time.
And the families, the clutter families speak in there. Yeah. About, I just want this to go away, that they believe they were inaccuracies and how Bonnie Clutter specifically was portrayed. I had no idea, you know? Yeah. And I think that that's, again, if we're talking about a victim-centered true crime, I'm really glad that's out there.
But then I'm also like, man, I wish I had seen this known. , you know? Yeah. And, and you know, to be fair to the class that I teach, we talk about a lot of these issues with true crime, right? But yeah, it's one of those things where I think there is just that human curiosity component without recognizing that, and that I think will continue to be true.
With that said, there is a way to engage that is more victim-centered. I wish that when True crime came out, it stated specifically, and some does to be [01:45:00] clear, but it came out and it stated the victim's family has chosen not to participate in this. And I think that at least people can understand, oh, okay, this is a, this is something that the victim's family chose not to be part of.
Why is that? Right? I think sometimes there's an assumption that the victim's family's okay with it because now it's on a streaming site or now it's on this news channel, and I think that assumption needs to be challenged more and more.
Collier Landry: Yes. And there was an article today, and I'm trying to pull it up on my phone that I read this morning, and I just wanna get the young person's name correct.
But this person, they were from the Parkland shooting something. I wanna say X Rodriguez, but I, I don't wanna butcher this. I'm trying to find it here. Of course it doesn't pull up when I'm like looking for it. Anyways, this individual was a, a victim of the Parkland shooting and [01:46:00] they, they had given a commencement address or an address to the class, and it was actually televised on like the news organizations.
And they had all these people reach out to them. But they're sharing their experience five years later now about how they went to Washington and how they were invited to this event in the symposium on gun control with one of the members of the. And essentially how a, an older white man, white-haired gentleman says to them, well, it's on you guys to really show the impact of gun violence.
And this basically pawning it off on these teenagers that have been through this horrific, tragic incident and just how, and they start the article saying, I'm writing this from my parents' bedroom five years later where I've moved back in after going to school and engaging in normal household things with my parents and things of that nature.
But just talking about the whirlwind that they went through and their schoolmates went through classmates on how, I think one of the things that we also don't consider on this side of true crime as well and that [01:47:00] I've experienced in dealing with some true crime celebrities is that they ga they, and this happens a lot in the entertainment industry.
I work as a cinematographer. I've worked in the business for a very long time and I started my, my. Goal of getting into the business was to tell my story, right? And my mother's story, uh uh, was to, to put a button on that to go, okay, I did that and I can move on with my life. One of the things that we always make a joke about is that you get this, you sort of do the post-show depression, right?
Cuz you're on a show and you're working with a bunch of people and you build this comradery and you're going to set every day and it's amazing. And then it ends and then you're like, what am I gonna do with my life now? Or you're like, oh, okay, and you'll get another job, but you kind of feel this loss like you've lost those friends, you've lost the, those people you saw every day at 7:00 AM and the call sheet you, you meeting by the food truck, getting your breakfast, whatever it is.
And I think when you look at the, [01:48:00] uh, salacious isn't the right word, but maybe a variation of it, when you look at the way that these stories come about and the way that we lift up these victims sometimes, or, okay, now they're going to be. The voice of this, or we're going to bring justice. And then again, the next case happens and you turn, look this way.
And it's like they're just dropped and they're all of a sudden there's a bigger case or the newer case, or the case goes cold. So then the media pulls their attention from this. Let's say if they're looking for somebody like a Gabby Petito and something else happens. And then what happens to those people who have this expectation that they had this team behind them to really help bring justice for their loved ones or themselves, and now all of a sudden they're abandoned because they're not the newest, hottest thing.
Right. And that's a very typical thing in Hollywood. You see an actor come out with a [01:49:00] movie and then it flops and then they're never hired again and they un hired for two years, and you wonder what happened to that person. Right? But that's an actor that's choosing a profession. That's not a person, a human being who's.
Tragedy was exploited and then they were just left dead, broke, wanting half as the saying goes, they're left out to the cold. Oh, okay. We've moved on. Okay. Yeah. Great. Good. Best of luck to you. It's V very, it's, and again, it tows that line of like, how do you proceed with this? Because you're, it's not just someone's career, someone's life, and it's the life of their loved ones, and now all of a sudden you put them in the spotlight and then as soon as it's not profitable to be in the spotlight, they turn to somebody else.
Mm-hmm. . And it takes a thick skin to really navigate that. Then you think about the mental health effects of that on the victims and their families as well, and I don't know. I don't know where we go from all of this.
Dr. Danielle Slakoff: Yeah, it's hard to say. I definitely think that we kind of see within true crime communities that there's like this case of focus and [01:50:00] then the new thing happens and then everybody kind of jumps to that.
And yeah, I hadn't really honestly thought about that, but how that must feel, you know, when the attention is gone. I think, this is just my personal opinion. I think that when a case is ongoing or cold, I think victim's families may feel differently than when there's already a perpetrator that's been convicted and they are ready to move to the next step.
And, and I think that that's just my personal take right now. They're, again, the academic literature is very scarce in this area, so I don't actually know. I would have to talk to co victims about how they feel about media attention, but I, I kind of speculate that that might be, they might be different based on where the case actually is.
In my own research I have, I have looked at podcasts specifically about intimate partner homicide, where the women are still missing, but they're presumed killed. . And one of the things that my co-authors [01:51:00] and I found in those podcasts is that some of the victims family members and friends say, you know, basically I'm doing this to bring attention back to the case.
Right? So I just think motivations are gonna vary for different family members and friends. And again, if the case is cold, I think there, there might be an incentive to try to be part of it, to try to get more attention on the case. But again, the, yeah, the literature's not really there to prove that or will not really prove, but there, the literature's not there to build that theory yet.
Collier Landry: Yeah. I was talking to Amanda Knox. You talk about somebody who was really caught up in the media circus a few months ago. I'm doing a podcast, uh, which is coming out soon, called Survivor Squad with Tara Newell, who's of Dirty John vam. And we had interviewed Amanda and there was a great scene in the documentary that done about her near case.
There's a part where the media asks her father, don't you think you know that you should be acting on this [01:52:00] right now while there's so much attention on it? So you can monetize it, so you can maximize the most money out of it. And the look on this man's face, it's just priceless. It's just, I could give a fuck about that.
Right? I care about my daughter. And so Amanda and I are laughing. We're all laughing about it because she, that's my dad just was like, how absurd are you? I care about my daughter. Money, attention. Are you outta your mind? ? Mm-hmm. , you own a time this, right. To maximize money. Right. But it's a very, is a very poignant reminder of what this all is.
It's the business of true
Dr. Danielle Slakoff: crime. Yes. And that is missing from so many of these conversations. And I recently spoke with a reporter, a local reporter in Moscow, where this Idaho four cases happened. . And I mentioned to her, you know, we're in this weird time where not only are we seeing true crime, you know, fictionalized true crime shows coming out about real murder cases like Jeffrey Dahmers and others, but we're also seeing the casting [01:53:00] of people like Zach Efron in these roles.
Yeah. Which is a very interesting decision by the casting director to pick someone who is, you know, a teen heartthrob, Disney actor, somebody that draws a lot of women to what his projects, it was a choice. Right? It was a deliberate choice that was made to have him play Ted Bundy. And so I think that there's also that strange part of it, right, is I don't think we could argue that there's no celebration going on when you are literally picking celebrities to play these roles.
Yeah. And so we're just in this weird, we're in this weird time right now,
Collier Landry: but then the artist in me also argues to the contrary of that. I wonder how hard he had to fight to get that role. Because as an actor, you, that is a dream role to be able to delve into the mind of someone like that and play, put yourself in a character that is so far out of your scope of, I also on the flip side, look at it from that way having worked in [01:54:00] the business.
Dr. Danielle Slakoff: be interesting, compassionate guy. It would be interesting to hear whose idea it was, like if he'd really, if he fought for it. If, if they came to him, you know, it would be interesting to hear that part of it
Collier Landry: because as an actor, you, when you're a, when you're called to want to do those roles that are so far outta your, like, he's probably going, thank God this is an ama, something I could sink my teeth into.
Right. I've never seen the show. Well, you know, I'm aware he is in it, but you know, you have somebody that is an opportunity of a lifetime I feel as well. So it's all very interesting. It makes for a very interesting conversation on a podcast for sure. Dr. Daniel sla Koff, thank you so much for joining me today.
Where can, where can my audience find you?
Dr. Danielle Slakoff: So I am very active on Twitter. My Twitter handle is at DLA off PhD. I'm very active there, so you can catch all my latest research and things like that there. And then on my Twitter, you can also find a link to my website.
Collier Landry: [01:55:00] Fantastic. Thank you so much for joining the program.
It's been an amazing chat. I hope to have you back too. You're great. Oh, I
Dr. Danielle Slakoff: would love that. And I think that, you know, I think that there's probably part two, three, and four that we could continue talking about because these issues are not gonna go away overnight. They're not, unfortunately. And I have to say, you know, I think you are very much in this group of people that I was just mentioning that are trying to bring compassion and empathy to true crime and, and change the conversation.
You know, you're centering survivor's voices and that's what we need more of in my opinion. So thank you for what you're doing as well. Thank you.
Collier Landry: Yeah, I appreciate you saying that. I'm just, I try to really, with moving past murder, I was like, I'm a guy who has a voice on true crime who can literally put his own experiences and put himself in the shoes of other people that people can't because, and I really feel like I'm specifically unique just because I was a child and I've literally moved on with my life and done things that I think are [01:56:00] somewhat cool.
But I'm also really this year focusing on more mental health and less true crime. But cause I don't really talk about true crime cases other than my own right. Or, or my perspective in relation to it. Even like talking to you today and talking about the Idaho case, part of me was like feeling icky about it.
Like I mentioned his name and you say, I call him the suspect. So
Dr. Danielle Slakoff: I'll be honest and say one of my, one of my really good friends is a researcher who studies gun violence specifically, and they are, my friend is somebody who speaks a lot about hashtag no notoriety, right? Not bringing notoriety to. People who have been suspected accused, convicted of crimes.
So that's kind of where it came from, is kind of that conversation. Conversation. Totally.
Collier Landry: And actually on Survivor Squad, when we interview people, we actually don't mention the perpetrator's name unless this, unless the person we're talking to says it's okay. But we intentionally don't do that to not, because we have both Tara and I have real issues with the [01:57:00] glorification of people like Ted Bundy, Jeffrey Dahmer, these psychopaths.
When I think about Coberg, when I mentioned him, I still see him as a suspect and less about convicted person. Have you ever been a crime con?
Dr. Danielle Slakoff: I have not. I've actually always wanted to go. I've heard from a couple people that are in the academic space that it's a really great opportunity to kind of talk about a lot of these
Collier Landry: issues.
It is. It's also a fantastic way to just be a fly on the wall. Mm-hmm. and just go, wow. I do feel like a lot of the content is so exploitative and just, and then you add insult to injury where then women are being exploited. Cuz I just have. I think that's the thing that just makes me the angry, is I just don't like seeing this perpetrated against women.
Mm-hmm. . And it's going back to my mother and not letting my father get away with it. He was like, oh, mommy took a little vacation. Call your, yeah. No, she didn't. . Mm-hmm. . And you're gonna go to prison. I'm gonna make sure of it. Oh, absolutely.
Dr. Danielle Slakoff: I would really, really love that. And get to learn more about your story.
Collier Landry: Yeah. The scene with my father is pretty wild . [01:58:00] I can,
Dr. Danielle Slakoff: I can only imagine.
Collier Landry: Yeah. And he, for a long time, I even thought that he was a, a sociopath, even though Dr. Phil was like, this man's a psychopath. I was like, no, he's a sociopath. And I was on Dr. Rami's podcast and navigating narcissism, and she was, now he's a psychopath.
And I was like, oh. And then she explained to me the differences in psychopathy, sociopathy, and narcissism. Maybe they all are, they all incorporate threads of one another, but psychopathy is like at the top of just like how methodical and everything. It's like Dahmer was a psychopath, obviously. Okay. And sort of understanding where all these things fit in the grand scheme of everything too, is so key to be able to talk to them as well.
All about education. If you are genuine, genuinely a person who wants to be educated about these things and wants to speak to them with any sort of authority or education about them, you have to understand and you can't be going for the cliques and the likes and all of that. You have to have genuine conversations.
And also, I talk about this, I was speaking at the Fashion Institute of [01:59:00] Merchandising and Design a couple of weeks ago to a social media class. Cause I have a huge TikTok following from sharing my story. And I said, what you have to do, and what I'm so grateful for that I was able to do as a child, is I made the decision to do what I felt was right.
And I testified not only working with law enforcement and bringing attention to it and finding clues against my father, but then also in the face of being abandoned by both sides of my family. Having the courage to testify against my father for two days at his trial. And making sure he was event he was incarcerated because of it, which he still is to this day.
And I thought about the choices I was telling the class it's all about, it's about choices because you wanna live in the moment and you want to think about those things, but also you want to think about 20, 30 years down the road, can I look myself in the mirror and go, I did the right thing. Right?
Because that will haunt you. Because I guarantee that if I didn't do that, [02:00:00] and even if my father was acquitted, I did everything I could to make sure that the truth was heard and to get justice for my mother and it was not easy. Mm-hmm. . And it's think that people have to take a step back and go, am I gonna feel good about the content that I've created?
A year ago, two years ago, it's even, everybody was so quick with the DeMar Hamlin thing to Excoriate. I was talking about Skip, skip Bayless, and oh, how can you say that? And Oh, you're a piece of shit, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. All this stuff and the timing of that was weird, but everybody was quick to jump on the fact that what if he died?
But nobody's really quick to do that with true crime, right? Like what if he's innocent? What you just said about him, like he's innocent. Like what? How do you feel about yourself now that you were so quick to throw his family under the bus and vilify everyone and he's innocent? You know what I mean?
Nobody, they were so quick with that, which I thought was just so fascinating to me, cuz I was happy about that in a [02:01:00] way. Okay, we're putting people's feet to the fire, but then the other half of me is like, why don't we do that for true crime? Right? Like, why aren't there other people saying you should keep your mouth shut because you don't want to look, you don't want to end up with egg on your face, right?
You go, oh well sorry. If you're, and you present yourself as some sort of authority, presenting the facts and discussing them in an open and intellectual way is enough to solidify yourself as an authority.
Dr. Danielle Slakoff: And to your point, I think even just asking if you're a content creator, just asking yourself, , if a victim's family member saw this, would it be causing additional harm?
Yeah. And I think that could help a lot , because I think sometimes it's pretty obvious that yes, it would cause additional harm. Right? And then other times it might be like, well, maybe not. You know, maybe they'll see that I'm trying to bring attention to the case if it's cold or whatever the case is.
Right. I think what makes this so interesting is that people, you, you know, consumers consume for different reasons and creators create for different reasons, and [02:02:00] there's no one answer to all of this.
Collier Landry: Yeah. I really wanna thank Dr. Layoff for her time today. What an interesting and engaging conversation. I love having people on that are academics, and I hope to have her back on this program because I feel that she adds such value to this topic of ethics.
True crime. It's consumption. It's a lot to think about it. Again, I'm, my thing at the end of the day is just take care of yourselves. Right. You, you want to guard your own mental health getting consumed in these cases. The world is a beautiful, amazing place, and as someone who has lived through extreme trauma and tragedy, the murder of my mother by my father, I just, I plead with you guys.
The world is, is a beautiful and wonderful place out there. It's not all scary, it's not all bad. And just take some time for yourselves to, to think about that. Anyways, I [02:03:00] digress. Mover Nation, thank you so much for tuning in hashtag Mover Nation. As somebody coined, if you would like to find out more about Dr.
Slay Koff and what she's doing, please check out the show notes from today's episode. Thank you so much for tuning in today. I'm Collier Landry and this is Moving Past Murder. Thanks y'all.
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The film A Murder in Mansfield is available on Investigation Discovery, discovery Plus and Amazon Prime Video.
This podcast is a production of Don't Touch My Radio.[02:04:00]